85344-86520 subjects 85714-86289
^ [BUG] Net::HTTP closed stream (IOError)
85522 [dooby d10.ka] ...
85524 [dooby d10.ka] ...
^ Re: "stereotyping" (was: Re: Strong Typing (Re: Managing metadata about attribute types) )
85523 [austin halos] That can be useful, but it tells you less than you think. As Jim
85582 [sean celsoft] But if something derives or mixes in an interface, then it *does* implement
+ 85590 [dblack wobbl] This is similar to Ryan Pavlik's comments to the effect of "Sure, if
| 85597 [sean celsoft] But you can't dynamically re-implement a method and change the parameters it
| 85599 [matz ruby-la] I don't mean "type checking is bad", but "type checking based on class
| 85604 [sean celsoft] No, type checking based on class inheritance (and mix-ins) is completely fine.
| + 85607 [chad chadfow] #
| | 85621 [sean celsoft] It's not, but if you look at a class as one form of interface declaration, it
| + 85613 [austin halos] Class != type. Type checking on inheritance is, IMO, explicitly a
| | + 85616 [James.Weiric] I think this is a strong example of what we are talking about. Checking for
| | | 85628 [sean celsoft] I agree, but "interface checking" doesn't have to involve developing an
| | | 85661 [austin halos] It's also a lie. MyFakeRuwikiClass doesn't implement the necessary
| | | 85666 [sean celsoft] But to a person passing in a unsuitable object, it notifies them "hey, you
| | | 85679 [austin halos] foo.backend
| | + 85625 [sean celsoft] I've already said I don't want type checking. I've used that term
| | | 85642 [austin halos] What you're talking about and what I'm talking about are two
| | | 85645 [sean celsoft] Then why did you respond to my post?
| | | 85657 [austin halos] Because my libraries tend to be very informative about errors. I use custom
| | | 85665 [sean celsoft] Why are you telling me this? Are you responding to something I've said about
| | + 85626 [chad chadfow] # > No, type checking based on class inheritance (and mix-ins) is
| + 85780 [decoux moulo] ...
| 85785 [transami run] could you explain the 'def tt(Enumerable a)' and 'def tt(Kernel a)' i take it this is overloading tt? i don't ever recall seeing this in a maunal and i own them all, i think. perhaps you can point me to a chapter or web page that has it? or elaborate if it is not well documented.
| 85787 [decoux moulo] ...
| 85834 [gsinclair so] Is it something you keep up to date and use constantly?
| 85835 [decoux moulo] ...
+ 85609 [austin halos] Who *needs* it? And why? Immediately, the classes of applications
85619 [sean celsoft] I do. I almost didn't choose Ruby because of the lack of type checking. I am
85656 [austin halos] Likely not. Because if you're looking at choosing a scripting
85664 [sean celsoft] Exactly my point. People are sticking with C++ where they could really
+ 85684 [austin halos] I somehow doubt it.
| + 85688 [simon ecnetw] Well, I'm a senior developer/team leader. I have been considering moving
| | + 85692 [sean celsoft] That's my experience. I love Ruby, but I just don't see a large team working
| | | 85695 [transami run] er...excuse me? but did you just not understand me? you want to create a whole new set syntatical stuructures to specify interfaces so we can do checks against those, in a purely dynamic language? D.N.C.
| | | 85696 [david.naseby] Ok, this has gone on too long ( ~ 4 posts? ) for my inner pedant not to
| | | 85700 [transami run] i dont spell, and rightly so! why? one word: Ghoti.
| | | 85705 [transami run] uh..at least they're are talking to you. which is more then a i can say for myself :( sigh... they just stop to nit pick at my spelling and make fun of duck puns...
| | + 85734 [tvuong comca] I'm in the same position too. Love Ruby but cannot recommend it for
| | 85748 [austin halos] Michael Campbell noted, if a library writer isn't going to document
| | + 85751 [tvuong comca] Could you give me an example of what is considered a good use then?
| | | 85876 [austin halos] * Checking against your own types. See Ruwiki's lib/ruwiki.rb lines
| | + 85756 [tvuong comca] I'll take a shot here - sorry could not resist.
| | | 85760 [austin halos] I'm glad you didn't resist. This, IMO, gets to the heart of the
| | + 85854 [sean celsoft] At some point, you ought to quit asking people why. They've answered you on
| | + 85858 [dblack wobbl] I'm not big on the "Just Do It" stuff (I boycott Nike actually), so
| | + 85860 [gour mail.in] It's interesting to note that at the same time (as this thread) there is also
| | | 85864 [sean celsoft] No has to just do it. But when people ask for something, it gets annoying to
| | + 85866 [austin halos] Sorry, but you need to reread the type checking proponents' posts
| | + 85869 [sean celsoft] You reject their reasoning and thus see no reason to give them what they ask
| | | 85879 [austin halos] With the exception of Thien's statement, I haven't seen *reasoning*.
| | | 85880 [sean celsoft] For the same reason I cannot argue why I need anything in life. Because
| | | 85895 [matz ruby-la] Interesting logic. But it's not good enough to persuade Sean (and me).
| | | + 85898 [sean celsoft] Do you mean the one titled "New Type Checking System Idea?"
| | | | 85899 [zdennis mkte] Sean,
| | | | 85902 [sean celsoft] Because the checks are only done when methods are added to the class, which
| | | + 85905 [dblack wobbl] I'm not trying to persuade you not to do it -- just pointing out that
| | | + 85906 [chad chadfow] #
| | | + 85908 [sean celsoft] No, class/module were NEVER enough. I've made two proposals (one RCR and post
| | | | + 85910 [James.Weiric] To be fair, he goes beyond class/module model. The reason we tend to object
| | | | | 85916 [austin halos] I don't like it because it's an empty promise.
| | | | | 85934 [g intersect-] Until I know that Object (or Foo, elsewhere, for that matter) hasn't had
| | | | | 86030 [surrender_it] well, apart from more Rubysh names (like Input and Output)
| | | | + 85912 [chad chadfow] # >
| | | | | 85917 [sean celsoft] There are ways to demonstrate that while maintaining an air of dignity in
| | | | + 85933 [Peter.Vanbro] The ruby code below illustrates some of my views on type/interface
| | | | 85937 [sean celsoft] [...highly informative paragraph removed for brevity...]
| | | | 85971 [Peter.Vanbro] Actually it's rather an application of the adapter pattern, which is an
| | | | 86000 [sean celsoft] Oh, I see. You know, I think I know of a script language that did that.
| | | | 86060 [Peter.Vanbro] Yup. And what I mean to say is that that context can be provided by the
| | | | 86069 [sean celsoft] Okay, I've said my peace on this subject and designed up a proposal you can
| | | + 85938 [matz ruby-la] * Types (or "interfaces" to avoid confusion) must be independent
| | | 85940 [sean celsoft] I agree, but since classes and interfaces are often synonymous, there could,
| | | 85944 [matz ruby-la] Possible.
| | | 85951 [sean celsoft] Perhaps tomorrow I can clean it up some more, when my eyes don't hurt as much,
| | | + 85955 [austin halos] That's enough, Sean. Everyone knows now that you're a spoiled little
| | | | + 85956 [sean celsoft] Whatever you say Ziegler.
| | | | + 85959 [transami run] oh come on guys! its all sport! you know, Duck Hunting! :) its fun!
| | | + 85962 [tvuong comca] I read it over a bit and have a few comments
| | | | 85996 [sean celsoft] I agree there is no need to declare any type declarations in the method
| | | + 85970 [matz ruby-la] I read the proposal. It's huge modify, which potentially affect
| | | + 85976 [transami run] uh...that would be me. at least i know you're reading me ;)
| | | | 85992 [mwilson13 co] 1. It should not be done in-line, but rather through a separate express
| | | | + 85993 [ahoward ngdc] (similar to my own)
| | | | | 86034 [greg puyo.cj] How does that work? I envisaged that classes would be "tagged" as
| | | | + 86004 [sean celsoft] Agreed. But also, one of the advantages to having the interfaces separate is
| | | | | 86015 [mwilson13 co] I think Ruby has (abstract) undeclared mutable interfaces now. I think
| | | | + 86006 [chad chadfow] #
| | | | 86007 [James.Weiric] I've been thinking about DbC stuff for some time and something in Matz Ruby
| | | | + 86008 [sean celsoft] def greet(other_person)
| | | | + 86010 [chad chadfow] # I've been thinking about DbC stuff for some time and something in Matz Ruby
| | | | | 86011 [James.Weiric] In the usage I described, only preconditions should go into the :pre method.
| | | | | 86016 [sean celsoft] I will if I find time.
| | | | | + 86022 [James.Weiric] Exactly. The contract spells out the requirements that the client software
| | | | | + 86044 [greg puyo.cj] Yes, but arguably you're changing the interface to the method/class at
| | | | | 86049 [sean celsoft] Except you don't open .h files to add logic, only to change declarations
| | | | + 86039 [matz ruby-la] I'd be second to Chad. Cool.
| | | | + 86051 [ahoward ngdc] class Person
| | | | + 86054 [hal9000 hype] My first impulse is to say: Just as super is used within "wrap",
| | | | + 86062 [transami run] what is required of it? would a special keyword variable be enough?
| | | | + 86068 [ahoward ngdc] i remeber some talk of 'def' returning values. this leads nicely into setting
| | | | + 86089 [chr_mail gmx] Ruby's default argument mechanism makes it impossible to add
| | | + 85997 [sean celsoft] Some of the things we gain were listed in the proposal.
| | | | 86046 [matz ruby-la] (a) help learning code.
| | | | 86050 [sean celsoft] Well, this is certainly much simpler to implement.
| | | + 86094 [charleshixsn] Perhaps one could make assertions about parameters / methods that could
| | + 86107 [charleshixsn] max(5.3, "austin")
| + 85689 [sean celsoft] I really feel this is just personal experience talking now. I've shared code
| + 85735 [austin halos] I think that you're assuming a conclusion not necessarily supported
| + 85762 [tvuong comca] Yeah - I hate that part too (with the presumption that an live object is
+ 85712 [mwilson13 co] At the recent lightweight languages conference, some BBN people gave a
85872 [rich infoeth] completely in Ruby. Its over 20k lines at this point. It drives a
^ Re: "stereotyping" (was: Re: Strong Typing (Re: Managing metadata about attribute types) )<Pine.LNX.firstname.lastname@example.org> <Pine.LNX.email@example.com>
85526 [tvuong comca] Uh... If we're getting there the equivalent argument would be
^ #2 part of matz' interview
85533 [surrender_it] Dynamic Productivity with Ruby
^ Encoding in ruby/tk internals
85536 [ ts pstu.edu] I'm trying to work with cp1251 encoding. Everything works fine, until
85537 [nagai ai.kyu] After calling Tk.encoding_system = 'cp1251',
85750 [ ts pstu.edu] Yes.
85763 [nagai ai.kyu] Well, could you try the following patch?
85771 [ ts pstu.edu] Seems that something wrong here.
85853 [nagai ai.kyu] Hmmm...
85958 [pnv82 pisem.] ??>> I try to replace it with this for testing and debug purpose
85960 [nagai ai.kyu] Thank you for your help to debug the problem.
^ Printer / Drucker
85540 [werner.warwe] How can I print the results on a printer? I found nothing about it.
85541 [Stephan.Kaem] On what system?
85542 [werner.warwe] This is currently not implemented. The print dialog is used only for
^ Re: $& write-protected?
85543 [decoux moulo] $& is read-only
+ 85548 [decoux moulo] Well, it's easy to do for $' and $`, no idea for the rest $1, ...
| 85554 [qj5nd7l02 sn] Aree, these values should only contain output from regexp.
| + 85556 [decoux moulo] ...
| | 85559 [qj5nd7l02 sn] I have about 150 testcases which I both test with Ruby's current regexp
| | 85561 [decoux moulo] ...
| | 85564 [qj5nd7l02 sn] Maybe overkill.
| | 85566 [decoux moulo] ...
| | + 85567 [James.Weiric] Wow, this solves a problem I was dealing with. I wanted to implement "sub"
| | + 85568 [qj5nd7l02 sn] I bail out, maybe I will look at it tomorrow. I hoped it wouldn't be this
| + 85560 [matz ruby-la] If you update $~ (the match result), $&, $1, etc. would follow
| + 85562 [qj5nd7l02 sn] Good idea for an RCR. I vote yes immediately for a pure MatchData class ;-)
| + 85579 [aredridel nb] Here, here!
+ 86167 [sabbyxtabby ] class MatchData
86178 [neoneye adsl] [snip fake MatchData class]
^ x.f! RCR
85547 [greg puyo.cj] It bugs me that some methods have a ! on the end and some don't. It
+ 85550 [greg puyo.cj] After thinking more about this, I can see why certain methods have a !
+ 85552 [contact maik] <quote>
85555 [greg puyo.cj] Yes, but it wasn't until about 15 minutes ago that I understood why, in
+ 85557 [contact maik] You are absolutely right. My point is much simpler: It is nearly
+ 85563 [uu9r stud.un] My understanding is, that "delete" is a destructive word itself, so it doesn't
85581 [djd15 po.cwr] That depends on your background, I suppose. If I'm not mistaken, ! and
+ 85610 [mneumann nte] I've to admit, I never really used Scheme or Lisp.
+ 85693 [mwilson13 co] My understanding of the use of ! in Scheme (and Lisp) is that ! is used
85747 [djd15 po.cwr] Well, I agree. However, I would argue that there should be a #delete
+ 85754 [greg puyo.cj] The proposal also states that the expansion is only performed if the
+ 85768 [mneumann nte] delete actually returns the removed element ("b" in this case) or nil if
85773 [djd15 po.cwr] Oh, that's actually a very good point about ! methods. They're usually
85804 [greg puyo.cj] Gosh, I had no idea! Well, at least I've learnt something new. :-)
^ [ANN] Vapor 0.80, now supports object versioning
85569 [oliver gol.c] I'm happy to announce the release of Vapor 0.80. This release fixes lots
^ break in yield/block
85570 [mhm26 drexel] Is there any reason that break acts differently in a block passed to a
85600 [matz ruby-la] Because they are different. "break" in a block terminates a method
85686 [mhm26 drexel] I figured that was why break was terminating in # - but why not have
+ 85782 [decoux moulo] ...
| 85841 [mhm26 drexel] The first example is the same as
+ 85953 [matz ruby-la] They cannot be same. I would surprise if calling Proc# terminates
85999 [mhm26 drexel] I was actually desiring the other way - that break from yield act like
86025 [matz ruby-la] That's how break is defined to work. Use "next" instead to terminates
^ Concerting a Date Object into a UNIX Timestamp
85571 [oelkers zrz.] maybe a stupid question because I probably missed something reading the
85572 [qj5nd7l02 sn] irb(main):001:0> Time.now.to_i
85573 [oelkers zrz.] Ah, thank you very much for that helpful (and quick!) response,
^ Ruby and RRDTool
85574 [DDouthitt cu] Does anyone have a ruby library or whatever that makes it easy to use RRDTool?
85584 [dennis sgi-p] What about setting up one? :)
85591 [tom infoethe] Yours,
85602 [DDouthitt cu] No matches found for rrdtool
85687 [john wishdev] Google is your friend
^ Re: Duck Type System? ( was: stereotyping...er...way too long
85575 [DDouthitt cu] Speaking of funny.....
^ Jabber4r With Ruby 1.8.0
85585 [joey joeygib] Is anyone using Jabber4r (or the latest CVS version) with the PragProg
^ ! usage
85651 [greg puyo.cj] That isn't my suggestion, but we do have conflicting POLS. :)
+ 85659 [brett_willia] What would this do? Something like a = a.join ?
| + 85663 [greg puyo.cj] That's true...
| + 85690 [charleshixsn] To me it seems worse than that. You've been assuming that the memebers
| 85730 [greg puyo.cj] I'm really not sure why you're shuddering. It's no different than doing
+ 85668 [aredridel nb] Just Danger.
^ Is there any way to throw an exception in a finalizer?
85671 [sera fhwang.] I'm trying to do write test code that involves a mock object throwing
85758 [matz ruby-la] You cannot assume when and where finalizers are called, and they are
^ Supplementary groups
85675 [andrew walro] Is there a function for setting supllementary groups? I don't see a method
85699 [lyle knology] Process.groups = [gid1, gid2, ...]
^ Migration to RubyForge (was Re: Ruby and RRDTool)
85681 [jamesUNDERBA] I'm sorry I can't answer your question, but I have some of my own
+ 85691 [charleshixsn] I haven't gotten anything appropriate nearly finished. (You did say poll.)
+ 85811 [martindemell] ...
+ 85842 [tom infoethe] [root@rubyforge cvs]# du -skH /var/cvs
^ [ANN] win32-clipboard 0.1.0
85709 [djberg96 yah] I'm happy to announce the first release of the
85713 [djberg96 yah] Also available on the RAA.
85716 [hal9000 hype] You know what I would use this for? If I ever got around to it? :)
85717 [harryo qiqso] If you do end up building it, I'll definitely grab a copy. I KVM between Win2000 and Linux all the time at home.
85721 [hal9000 hype] Well, why don't we knock it out, then? What's your GUI of choice?
+ 85724 [harryo qiqso] Hey Hal,
+ 85726 [harryo qiqso] ... or did you mean GUI toolkit? I've played a bit with FX/Ruby.
85731 [hal9000 hype] Yes, that's what I meant. I'm most familiar with fxruby, but there
+ 85746 [kapheine hyp] You probably want to check out a program like xclip
| 85795 [raphael.baud] There is a perl example in the article, but I think stable ruby bindings are on
| + 85903 [surrender_it] you can however use kxmlrpcd and script kde via xmlrpc, fairly easy
| + 85907 [harryo qiqso] It would be really nice if there was a common mechanism used by all X11 desktops for this kind of generic stuff, rather than each having their own :-(.
| 85921 [kapheine hyp] =20
+ 85883 [drbrain segm] Just have a clip history of the last N things sent... Much more useful
+ 85904 [harryo qiqso] Sorry for the slow reply ... timezones.