49018-51862

48710-50035 subjects 49314-50611

Ruby, Java, et. al.
49018 [michael_s_ca] be dead in a
+ 49022 [usynin@he .u] what's COBOL? never heard of it. Is it some dead language? :-P
| 49023 [hal9000@hy e] Maybe you've heard of the OO version.
| 49024 [michael_s_ca] ... GIVING COBOL.
+ 49050 [tom@li ux ri] Hehehe. I know of an awful lot of java code that is just *never* going

School work (no, this isn't a homework problem)
49030 [ambaxter@bu ] Well, I'm a Ruby Newbie, so this question should be interesting.
+ 49033 [pbrannan@at ] Ruby has no pointers.  However, it has references, which are just as
| 49034 [David.Stagne] If you're expected to work with pointers, then *my* answer would be to use
| 49064 [gsinclair@so] I just bought Knuth's classic books yesterday, and had to tell the world! :D
+ 49035 [alan@di ik t] Pardon the pun but if the whole point of the next section is to learn

rpkg questions
49039 [patrick-may@] first of all, rpkg == mana from heaven!!!
49123 [list@NO PA c] The one online (http://www.allruby.com/rpkg) works.  I'm not
49313 [patrick-may@] don't we all have this problem.  Still, busy-ness is good :-)
49397 [list@NO PA c] Should be pretty easy.

Options for optimizing a large Ruby system
49042 [sera@fh an .] I've written a large e-commerce system in Ruby, and it works fine but
+ 49052 [Dave@Pr gm t] I have that same problem, and mod_ruby does help. There's still the
| 49094 [tsiivola@cc ] Is there a reason why autoload just won't cut it?
| + 49111 [Dave@Pr gm t] That is a very good idea... It never occurred to be that autoload would
| + 49120 [billtj@z. lu] When we are dealing with a "large" Ruby system, with a lot of live
+ 49053 [joe@vp p. et] Take a look at fastcgi: http://www.fastcgi.com/
| 49116 [patrick-may@] Do you have a mirror of the ruby fast cgi bindings?  Eli Green's site
| + 49126 [brandt@ku ow] i've got a copy at http://liber.sf.net/fastcgi.rb
| | 49213 [patrick-may@] Thanks!  When I integrate fastcgi into narf, I will throw this into
| + 49127 [mgushee@ha e] Does anyone know how much FastCGI actually boosts performance?
|   49212 [patrick-may@] I am looking into integrating FastCGI support with the Narf web
|   49215 [mgushee@ha e] Interesting. What's Narf?
|   49310 [patrick-may@] Narf is an alternative CGI api that builds off of Wakou Aoyama's
+ 49077 [patrick-may@] Since the interpreter loads a given "require 'file'" once, I believe a
+ 49079 [web2ed@ya oo] If you receive off-line responses, could you please post them to the
+ 49092 [sls@sc re ro] You could try a web application server.  I just released ocelot (I will

Newbie Qs: startup time, Module.constants, chdir, Ruby distro's library
49043 [NOSPAM_jazz_] I'm new to Ruby and my first impressions are really good: after some
+ 49046 [hal9000@hy e] library
+ 49121 [lyle@us rs s] Do you know about Andy Hunt's distribution for Ruby-on-Windows?

Breaking from 'case'
49045 [rubytalk@bo ] is there any possibility to 'break' from 'case' ?
+ 49054 [jeremy@ch os] My first impulse would be to wrap the case in a method and skip by
| 49059 [rubytalk@bo ] [...snip...]
+ 49056 [ADATE@kc rr ] Looks like you are making a case (no pun intended ... ) for goto. ;-)
| 49073 [alan@di ik t] Or for extending the semantics of break. :)
+ 49075 [alan@di ik t] catch( :breakout ) do

Re-evaluating a 'case'
49063 [airboss@no e] I was reminded of this problem by the recent 'breaking out of case'
+ 49065 [Dave@Pr gm t] Well, there's always...
+ 49069 [gsinclair@so] The redo keyword might help here, no?  (I've never used it so I'm not sure.)
+ 49078 [alan@di ik t] I don't think its better, and in some ways worse :)
+ 49081 [behrends@cs ] def restartable

Last paragraph of this article speaks of our favorite language...
49072 [rich@in oe h] "JAGUAR has some other noteworthy Unix features outside the OS itself. I

Australian Visual (AVU)
49102 [dsafari@pa a] Interesting - this company trades low low volumes, then yesterday all of a
49103 [dsafari@pa a] Sigh...wrong ml...apologies - I should just go to bed.

tk and memory
49106 [jean-francoi] It seems that when deleting items of Tk , the memory is never free. is

Future of Java
49110 [damejm@na ai] I tend to agree with you on  how Java came about and was marketed and

Stibbsian
49118 [johnknight.c] ESR really norished the hacker's dictionary http://tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/
+ 49128 [mgushee@ha e] Hmm ... that used to be known as "playing devil's advocate." Of course,
+ 49148 [james@ja es ] I don't see what was so disruptive, challenging or even quasi-trollish about
  + 49152 [jim@fr ez .o] WHAT THE @$#@$ ARE YOU @#$#@ TALKING @##@$$ ABOUT YOU @##@^!!!
  + 49163 [elderburn@mi] That was my take. I saw it as a "story" derived from stibbs own
  + 49296 [hal9000@hy e] by

未承諾広告※サクセス@タウン★ミからお知らせです!
49122 [power@ha py ] 【未承諾広告※】

Healthy Life
49139 [health808@21] ...

$0 == __FILE__ idiom for Unix only?
49162 [Laurent.Jull] I have been using the Ruby idiom 'if $0 == __FILE__ ..... end' for
+ 49168 [jim@fr ez .o] I don't have acess to a windows system, but it works on windows
+ 49169 [camin@ci .r ] if __FILE__ == $0
+ 49184 [chrismo@cl b] Works all the time for me on Windows...

Document tools
49174 [comp.lang.ru] - - The great part about POD is that it isn't great, it's the
49178 [Dave@Pr gm t] I'm not sure I see the benefit in the intermediate rd2 or POD
49277 [comp.lang.ru] - - I'm not argueing that, I guess there's some confusion of terms,
+ 49280 [Dave@Pr gm t] Yes.
+ 49304 [elderburn@mi] I really don't believe this is possilbe these days while keeping
  49392 [comp.lang.ru] - - It certainly is possible. POD shows us the way. I think the
  + 49404 [Dave@Pr gm t] =head1 NAME
  | + 49411 [dblack@ca dl] That last may be intended as a rhetorical question, but I'll go ahead
  | | 49491 [comp.lang.ru] - - The only advantage POD has over anything existing currently in
  | | 49493 [gsinclair@so] Insofar as any objectives have been formally set by the new effort to make Ruby
  | + 49489 [comp.lang.ru] - - That's not what I'm suggesting. What I would like to see is
  |   49495 [Dave@Pr gm t] RDoc could do both of those once I have the 'ri' stuff integrated.
  |   + 49498 [alwagner@tc ] Dave, do you realize that you have a great beginning towards a Ruby
  |   | 49503 [Dave@Pr gm t] Well.. remember RDoc's analysis is static. However, ripping out RDocs
  |   | 49504 [alwagner@tc ] I know :-)  I just spent several weeks doing just that as an exercise for
  |   + 49577 [comp.lang.ru] - - So you're proposing ri's internal format as the intermediate
  |     49580 [Dave@Pr gm t] Yes, although not the current format.
  + 49427 [list@NO PA c] But I'd get to choose the comments, and you don't want that, believe

ORIENT BANK OF NIGERIA INVITES YOU
49179 [bello_mohamm] Greetings,
49222 [psamermit@ji] Why and how is this coming in the mail?

聞喘強蓑囃兆斑艇煤煤防防繍麼字熔壓徭失社
49190 [sanry@21 n. ] 艇挫!

Ruby 10'th most popular ICFP contest language
49196 [mikkelfj-ant] The ICFP '02 contest have listed the number of entries per language.
49200 [DDouthitt@cu] ...
+ 49201 [paul@pr sc d] Well it is supposed to be a functional programming contest. It's amazing
| 49239 [selander@pd ] Nope, it is supposed to be a programming contest for every language, hosted
| + 49270 [paul@pr sc d] So then it is no surprise if there is a bias towards the use of functional
| + 49275 [probertm@no ] I think that the numbers reflect more current academic preference
+ 49202 [michael_s_ca] It makes sense for forth, as it's heavily stack based.

Suggestion for those in the ICFP contest...
49197 [rich@li hi o] Since I won't have the time to contribute with code...
49281 [dfan@df n. r] The score a robot receives is the total weight of the packages it

Sort Question
49205 [mark.firesto] I don't understand something (so what else is new) again... lets say I have
+ 49206 [alwagner@tc ] On Thursday 05 September 2002 06:58 pm, Firestone, Mark - Technical Support
| 49220 [matz@ru y- a] If you are using 1.7, you can
| 49242 [mark.firesto] I like the sort_by syntax.  How stable is 1.7.2?
| 49413 [gsinclair@so] I like it too, but can't answer your question.  Bear in mind, however, that you
+ 49217 [flori@ni e. ] Better than what? There are many idiomatic ways to sort

ruby.h missing functions
49208 [jcb@it ri .c] I am trying to write my first Ruby extension.
+ 49216 [cyclists@nc ] Are you thinking of rb_ary_new?
+ 49218 [flori@ni e. ] Hmm, is this a bug in the book? It should be rb_ary_new().
| 49291 [jcb@it ri .c] My mistake.  It is rb_ary_new() and the book had it right.
+ 49219 [matz@ru y- a] Some funtions are in "intern.h".

[ANN] amrita V0.9.1(first beta release)
49228 [tnakajima@br] I released amrita V0.9.1, the first beta release, get it from...

BUSINESS PARTNERSHIP.
49232 [alkat_ha20@e] Jakarta, Indonesia.

Test::Unit::UI::Console::TestRunner suggestions
49234 [patrick-may@] I just switched a codebase from RUNIT to Test::Unit, b/c Test::Unit is

How to have a conversation with popen
49235 [phlip_cpp@ya] The popen (and popen3) documentation and discussions in the 'net archives
+ 49240 [decoux@mo lo] Perhaps best to distinguish Errno::EWOULDBLOCK from other errors
+ 49361 [phlip_cpp@ya] require 'fcntl'

ruby entry widget does not display properly
49249 [jberard@ip i] In win2k ruby does not seem to be able to display properly Tk entry widget
49251 [mgushee@ha e] This is part of the problem. Instead of 'insertwidth', use 'width', just
49486 [jberard@ip i] It is reassuring to know that the transcription of tk scripts into ruby

Adopt an Orphaned Tailor
49278 [transami@tr ] i was wondering if anyone wanted to adopt a worthwhile but orphaned
49283 [nat.pryce@b1] Great!  But... what's a Tag Attribute Language?
49287 [transami@tr ] here's a zope page about them.

cgi.rb replacing "0x0a" symbols with "0x0d 0x0a" ?
49279 [rayz@gl ri .] I am new to ruby and lack of understanding
+ 49282 [decoux@mo lo] Well, I know nothing on win32 but try with "wb"
| 49284 [rayz@gl ri .] Thanx, Guy
+ 49285 [szegedy@no p] newFile = File.new(CustomDir + newFilename + extension, "wb")
  49300 [rayz@gl ri .] oke, i am developing my web-server under Windows locally now, and in
  49309 [szegedy@no p] Yes.

segault of interpeter
49286 [cedric.foll@] 1.6.7-3 build 2002-03-19 under debian linux).
49288 [pbrannan@at ] How many file descriptors do you have open?
49311 [cedric.foll-] I read one file at the biginning (before running threads).
+ 49315 [pbrannan@at ] You mentioned tcp requests, and every tcp socket is also a file
+ 49335 [flori@ni e. ] Sockets need file descriptors, too. Perhaps you ran into the same
  49387 [cedric.foll-] It was that pb (too many file descriptors).

understanding functions under ruby
49289 [cedric.foll@] Why func.type (or self.func.type) doesn't work (when func is a function)?
+ 49290 [szegedy@no p] This returns the type of the value returnd by func.
+ 49292 [dblack@ca dl] If func is a method call, then you're calling type on the return value

OS-independent build of ruby
49294 [reckless2k@y] I need a version of ruby that I can bind / extend with OS-independent C++
+ 49295 [elanthis@aw ] Woah, you want an executable - binary format - that is OS independent?
| 49298 [mgushee@ha e] It could: JRuby, anyone?
| 49305 [elanthis@aw ] I'm not familiar with JRuby, but if it works as I imagine, it's still
| 49307 [mgushee@ha e] As far as I know, it's just a product of my warped imagination ...
+ 49318 [ptkwt@sh ll ] Swig does work well and it's getting better all the time.

Larry Wall's comments on Ruby
49297 [ptkwt@sh ll ] We may not agree with what Larry has to say about Ruby, but as usual he
+ 49301 [andy@to ls e] I think Larry's off his rocker on this one.  Consistency is far
| + 49302 [nigel@fo ev ] What do you expect him to say?
| + 49316 [elderburn@mi] Which, geven the time of his rise to ascendency would be expected. We
| | + 49364 [chr_news@gm ] Actually, I am curious. Do you have something more specific in mind,
| | | 49365 [johnknight.c] Am I missing something? I have seen clear and telling rejoinders to
| | + 49381 [szegedy@t- n] I wonder whether you know what complexity theory is about...
| | | 49403 [alwagner@tc ] < snip>
| | | 49412 [szegedy@t- n] The complexity theory deals with (mainly asymptotic) runtime
| | | + 49416 [kentda@st d.] This looks like a rather specific application of complexity theory.
| | | + 49418 [alwagner@tc ] Thank you for your reply and the link.  I am incompetent to argue the point.
| | | | 49426 [szegedy@t- n] I am a (discrete) mathematician. My brother happens to be a
| | | | + 49431 [szegedy@t- n] Sorry, I've misinterpreted your sentence about
| | | | + 49440 [gotoken@no w] Really?  Turing machines don't focus interactions with its environment
| | | | | 49455 [szegedy@t- n] Of course the TM needs an HTTP oracle... :)
| | | | + 49444 [hal9000@hy e] that
| | | | + 49653 [alwagner@tc ] Sorry, Christian.  I have brooded on this response for several days now and
| | | |   49655 [hal9000@hy e] The
| | | |   49659 [alwagner@tc ] Thanks, Hal.  I felt like a fool the instant I hit the send key.
| | | |   49660 [hal9000@hy e] Ha!
| | | + 49432 [james@ja es ] James
| | + 49478 [twp20@sp m. ] To clear up the discussion here, I believe that Kent is refering to
| + 49320 [usynin@he .u] I agree completely,I think Ruby might be the best language to learn as
| | 49322 [andy@to ls e] Hmm.  As it turns out, I keep finding out about more and more neat
| | + 49323 [andy@to ls e] Probably, but they are not.  I take the PLS to be a measure of
| | | 49331 [usynin@he .u] yeah and as I said, depending on your background , Ruby is just as full
| | | + 49332 [paul@pr sc d] The question is, once you've mastered Ruby's basic worldview do you still
| | | | 49333 [andy@to ls e] Disagree; the Ruby FAQ is quite a bit skinnier than 4" :-)
| | | | + 49338 [rich@in oe h] I would like a quick shot at this.
| | | | | + 49514 [cjs@cy ic ne] I find that odd. I do the test/write/test/refactor loop constantly
| | | | | + 49601 [meier@me st ] Actually using IDEA as in IDE I found refactoring in Java actually fun
| | | | + 49340 [behrends@cs ] There are a few things. One is operator precedence; to find out that
| | | | | + 49345 [dblack@ca dl] begin statement; rescue; end while condition
| | | | | | 49380 [decoux@mo lo] pigeon% ruby -ve 'begin puts 12; rescue; end while false'
| | | | | + 49679 [ ddet@gm .d ] Hum. First of all I think the "Principle of Least Surprise" does never
| | | | + 49343 [usynin@he .u] well things that surprised me will probably be considered obvious by
| | | | | + 49409 [gsinclair@so] And they're good points.
| | | | | | 49414 [usynin@he .u] I don't _fully_ agree(see below). A couple of years ago I  had to write
| | | | | | 49417 [szegedy@t- n] I think, a better measure is the satisfaction you feel when
| | | | | + 49680 [ ddet@gm .d ] Why, having the basic concept of unary operators ...
| | | | |   49686 [dblack@ca dl] That's a great way to put it.  It goes together well with a
| | | | + 49344 [tamills@up .] Learning a new concept that does not fit with your worldview does count as
| | | | | + 49346 [probertm@no ] I think you are right that it is the change in world view that
| | | | | | 49360 [canyonrat@ma] ...
| | | | | + 49355 [paul@No pA P] Depends on who "our" beginners are.  If they're beginners to Ruby, but
| | | | + 49376 [david@l8 .o ] "abcd"[0] # => 97 (!!! Shouldn't this be "a"?)
| | | + 49354 [jfh@ci e. fl] Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Thinking about C++ templates alone makes
| | |   49359 [robert.calco] My $0.02...
| | + 49350 [elderburn@mi] Well, the "incident" occurred a little over two years ago and involved a
| |   + 49419 [michael_s_ca] That's one spin; another might be that a poor [set of] programmer[s] who
| |   + 49430 [cbbrowne@ac ] I think the Perl guys got it right, as far as the ideal quote is
| + 49324 [tamills@up .] "I thinks that's why so many people have
| | + 49325 [andy@to ls e] "the tools we are trying to use and the language or notation
| | | 49351 [hal9000@hy e] person
| | | 49352 [mgushee@ha e] Well, linguists these days don't think too much of *his* work. Much of
| | | 49408 [alwagner@tc ] Yet, I wonder how many of those who harshly judge his work were originally
| | + 49394 [list@NO PA c] Surprise ain't bad when it's pleasant.
| + 49330 [mgushee@ha e] Hmm, this comment reminds me of when I took Sun's "Java Programming
| | 49536 [peter@se an ] I used to have to put up with lessons on how to do 2s complement
| + 49370 [patrick-may@] This part jumped out to me too.  To beginner (say my gf), 1 is a
| | 49372 [behrends@cs ] One might consider "teachability" as an alternate metric, since the task
| | 49446 [austin@ha os] I'm curious -- why would you rate Python above Ruby for
| | + 49447 [robert.calco] %% I realise that I'm coming from a different point of view than your
| | | 49654 [avdi@av i. r] Would that this were so.  However, it's not; and no amount of claiming
| | | 49657 [hal9000@hy e] I agree with you to the extent that I'm able. (I know
| | | 49691 [billtj@z. lu] Ha.. ha.. ha.., very well said, Hal, very well said :)  I knew it! I knew
| | | 49698 [alwagner@tc ] Interesting.  When I was looking for an alternative to Smalltalk, I had the
| | | 49714 [billtj@z. lu] I guess it really depends on how far one goes the first time he/she learns
| | + 49456 [hal9000@hy e] An interesting comment, since a paragraph doesn't
| |   + 49458 [austin@ha os] This is true, but only to a degree. If one is using block format
| |   | + 49459 [hal9000@hy e] Yes, I agree...
| |   | | + 49460 [gsinclair@so] Please, please do!  (I'm sure it would be useful to 99% of Ruby programmers.)
| |   | | | 49501 [alwagner@tc ] Yes, Please do.
| |   | | + 49461 [austin@ha os] [Note: In my examples I'm going to use 'n+' to indicate that the
| |   | | + 49484 [canyonrat@ma] Having a plethora of end tokens in the language seems quite heavy and,
| |   | + 49683 [ ddet@gm .d ] whereas the latter will come up again with blocks.
| |   |   49687 [michael_s_ca] I have.  (And in C, Java, C++, etc.)  And in almost every case, it is
| |   + 49470 [bilotta78@ho] Oho, untrue :) The full stop (or question or exclamation mark or
| + 49378 [W.L.Kleb@la ] But Ruby's consistency gave into familiarity in certain
|   + 49410 [gsinclair@so] 5.cos, 5.arcsin, 5.tenthroot, 5.inverse, 5.negative, 5.prime?
|   | 49423 [chr_news@gm ] Why? - once I get used to {}.inverse, 5.abs or 5.0.finite? I find
|   | 49443 [hal9000@hy e] things
|   | + 49490 [chr_news@gm ] It is just that the deliberate ``non-OO-ness'' of sin(x) etc., makes
|   | + 49690 [billtj@z. lu] I completely agree with Hal.  OO, no matter how wonderful it is and how
|   |   50096 [chr_news@gm ] If my memory serves me right, the author of a introductory
|   |   50123 [gsinclair@so] Pardon my ignorance, but I don't see what the alternative to Match.cos(x) is,
|   |   50153 [billtj@z. lu] I think in Ruby, if you are sure that in your script there are no others
|   |   50161 [gsinclair@so] I suppose that most math calculations would be isolated to a couple of classes.
|   |   50245 [chr_news@gm ] Well it is very reasonable (I personally I try to avoid this
|   + 49441 [harryo@zi .c] This one's been discussed a lot before.
|     + 49527 [ryo_saeba_00] Totally agree. It's the same case as with the 5.cos
|     + 49531 [cjh_nospam@m] Very fair - but that doesn't necessarily mean that the filesystem should
+ 49303 [dblack@ca dl] No question here.  We have the answer: Matz's.
+ 49306 [james@ja es ] This may have to do with the granularity of surprise.  For example, if I use
+ 49308 [alan@di ik t] A total beginner, I think, would have the same amount of difficulty
| 49384 [szegedy@t- n] Actually I have made a quite interesting experiance last year.
| 49388 [robert.calco] %% -----Original Message-----
+ 49319 [usynin@he .u] I think this whole Least Surprise Principle is a load of bullshit that
| + 49383 [szegedy@t- n] I was able to use Ruby quite well 1 hour after downloading it.
| | + 49391 [flori@ni e. ] Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to
| | | 49393 [szegedy@t- n] ...
| | + 49406 [usynin@he .u] Well this is like saying: Ruby is very natural and intuitive and you can
| |   49415 [szegedy@t- n] I knew only C and C++ (And a bit Basic and some assemblers) before Ruby.
| + 49390 [matz@ru y- a] Although I admit the "Principle of Least Surprise" has bigger impact
| | 49407 [usynin@he .u] Well yes, I went way too far saying all languages follow that, but I
| + 49402 [gsinclair@so] POLS has enough meaning for enough people that it deserves to be considered
+ 49326 [billtj@y. lu] He, he, I think Larry Wall really got himself into trouble this time.  The
| + 49327 [andy@to ls e] I think that's a fair summary of Perl, actually.  It's a very
| | + 49328 [andy@to ls e] If we're voting, I'd second that :-)
| | + 49329 [michael_s_ca] I agree here too in this context, but I have to put in a quote I'm
| | | 49396 [list@NO PA c] I'd challenge Mr Wilde to be willing to write that with a pen that
| | | 49420 [michael_s_ca] Having read some of Mr. Wilde's works, I'm not convinced he didn't do just that.
| | | 49433 [ptkwt@sh ll ] Yes, while it _seems_ to be a fitting quote and it's often thrown around,
| | | 49445 [michael_s_ca] Of course not, everything has its place.  In my day-to-day work (I'm
| | | 49492 [list@NO PA c] We're talking about different kinds of consistency.  In fact, you're
| | + 49356 [bryan@te ra ] And you know what, in many ways consistency is exactly what Larry is
| + 49405 [gsinclair@so] That's something that's too often forgotten.  Procedural is really a subset of
|   + 49442 [harryo@zi .c] Well, they must have stopped off in Australia for a short while in-between uni
|   + 49560 [billtj@z. lu] Oh yes, there is no doubt about it.  I just regretted that for a clever
|     49621 [jobeicus@ho ] i have a great deal of respect for Mr. Wall as i was a perl programmer
|     49625 [bobx@li ux a] Hey! Keep your feng outta my shui!  : )
|     49627 [qrczak@kn .o] The problem is that Ruby couples the syntax of the call with the way
|     + 49648 [matz@ru y- a] I'm not sure if you're talking multi-method like one in CLOS, or other
|     | 49658 [chr_news@gm ] However (multi)-methods could ``belong'' to several (specified) classes.
|     | + 49675 [matz@ru y- a] Multi-method is kinda like multiple inheritance.  It is *natural*
|     | | + 49795 [chr_news@gm ] Why, shouldn't I use something if I am not smart enough to use (or
|     | | | + 49796 [vjoel@PA H. ] It might be interesting to write a GenericFunction class in ruby to
|     | | | + 49835 [matz@ru y- a] There are two kind of people who use MI.  A part is really smart
|     | | |   49840 [pit@ca it in] You could say that of almost every feature of Ruby. I'm sure many
|     | | |   + 49841 [decoux@mo lo] Well, my comments given in the the message [ruby-talk:26914]
|     | | |   + 51862 [mikkelfj-ant] ...
|     | | |     51861 [mikkelfj-ant] I never really understood what OO is, and probably never will. I really
|     | | + 49827 [frido@q- of ] Sorry I do  not like this smarter than anyone else stuff. even with a
|     | |   + 49854 [gsinclair@so] A language cannot offer every programming construct under the sun.  Ruby
|     | |   | + 49862 [mike@st k. o] Take a look at the relevant slides in
|     | |   | + 49865 [michael_s_ca] Wasn't this one of the big problems with PL/1?  It offered SO MANY
|     | |   | + 49960 [frido@q- of ] I agree. Anyway other choose C because of pointer artithmetic can
|     | |   + 49864 [matz@ru y- a] I'm sorry if you are bothered by my "smarter than" stuff.  It was only
|     | |     + 49967 [frido@q- of ] Sorry for TOFU, but I send the reply to matz via mail. I'm sorry for
|     | |     | 49973 [matz@ru y- a] I said "machine instruction" that is a sequence of bytes.  No syntax,
|     | |     | 50155 [billtj@z. lu] I believe what is considered "simple" and/or "easy" really depends on the
|     | |     | 50168 [gsinclair@so] - it's like the mathematical representation (upside down A)
|     | |     | 51020 [stesch@no sp] It's a bit more than syntax sugar. Watch the scope of the local
|     | |     | 51140 [gsinclair@so] IMO, is
|     | |     | 51144 [vjoel@PA H. ] (1..3).each {|x|}
|     | |     + 49996 [billtj@z. lu] I think everything that you said is true.  I guess people who are not
|     | + 49678 [gsinclair@so] I'm not convinced that it's unnatural.  We don't know the types of a and
|     |   49701 [n1k0@ro er .] I find that highly unnatural because we've been learning since grade school
|     |   + 49703 [dblack@ca dl] On the other hand, in grade school you probably weren't adding
|     |   | 49707 [David.Stagne] I think Gavin is right... we don't "add" strings, we concatenate them.
|     |   | + 49709 [shauns@pi ol] And Visual Basic ;)
|     |   | + 49712 [dblack@ca dl] I have to ask... how much surprise or learning curve is *really*
|     |   | | 49778 [tamills@up .] And I feel the need to weigh in here, too.  Not everyone is surprised by
|     |   | | 49783 [hal9000@hy e] Joke, troll, or mistake?
|     |   | + 49716 [billtj@z. lu] Agreed.  Until now, I still mistakenly use the "." operator from time to
|     |   |   + 49721 [dblack@ca dl] But then what would Ruby use for method calls on strings?  Honestly, I
|     |   |   | + 49724 [pbrannan@at ] Ruby could use a different operator, which is what I've read that perl6
|     |   |   | | 49734 [mike@st k. o] Perl might not have used . for string concatenation were it not for the
|     |   |   | | 49804 [gsinclair@so] The >/gt dichotomy prevented me from ever grokking Perl.  *That* was unnatural!
|     |   |   | | 49815 [michael_s_ca] The mnemonic there was to use the "stringish" comparitors to compare
|     |   |   | | 49818 [gsinclair@so] Yes, I'm aware of that.  But I kept getting errors in my code that were
|     |   |   | + 49725 [billtj@z. lu] Oh yes, the consequence is there will more syntax in terms of
|     |   |   + 49798 [james@ja es ] I used to bounce back and forth between writing or maintaining ActiveServer
|     |   + 49711 [michael_s_ca] Quite a change for existing ruby for that.
|     |   + 49726 [bilotta78@ho] No way. For example, product is commutative only up to complex
|     |   | + 49742 [cbbrowne@ac ] In Group Theory, the whole _point_ is to come up with addition and
|     |   | | 49748 [bilotta78@ho] Actually a group only has ONE operation defined. The structure with
|     |   | + 49747 [gotoken@no w] Well, we often choose `+' for commutative operation in algebra indeed.
|     |   |   49784 [chr_news@gm ] I find  it strange that ``*'' looks strange;-)  The almost universally
|     |   + 49752 [austin@ha os] Ummm... with a string, a + b != b + a; yet this is to be expected. I
|     |   + 49761 [hal9000@hy e] school
|     |   + 49803 [gsinclair@so] In addition to the other useful counterexamples, I'll point out that
|     + 49662 [chr_news@gm ] The artificial distinction,  mathematically it makes little (actually
|     | 49663 [hal9000@hy e] It should be possible to write a little module to mix
|     | + 49665 [behrends@cs ] class Numeric
|     | | 49666 [hal9000@hy e] Yeah... what he said.  :)
|     | | 49667 [rich@in oe h] class Numeric
|     | | + 49668 [gotoken@no w] Meth.method(meth).arity == 1 and module_eval <<-EOF
|     | | + 49670 [behrends@cs ] The problem with that is that ldexp, frexp, atan2, and hypot (the last
|     | + 49682 [decoux@mo lo] Look at "parasitic" methods [ruby-talk:17875], but there are very good
|     |   49797 [pit@ca it in] Guy,
|     |   49836 [decoux@mo lo] See [ruby-talk:49835]
|     + 49754 [qrczak@kn .o] Both, they are related.
|       49756 [djberge@qw s] ...
|       49757 [vjoel@PA H. ] Godwin's law. Thread over. Let's get back to Ruby. :-)
+ 49334 [pabs@pa lo r] I'm suspicious of anything Larry, or any of the top Perl brass, have to
| + 49341 [dan@si he or] Erm... only my and our are declarations. local is not. And you'd use
| | 49348 [pabs@pa lo r] True.  I guess what I'm really trying to say is this: despite the
| | 49349 [andy@to ls e] But that's not the original point -- the Principle of Least surprise
| | 49357 [phlip_cpp@ya] Phlip
| + 49379 [decoux@mo lo] I'm agree with you, there is madness in "my" :-)
+ 49362 [tim@ve et .a] [ snippage ]
+ 49366 [phlip_cpp@ya] Guys, Google Groups sez this thread does not yet contain the phrase
| 49368 [james@ja es ] Done.
+ 49386 [list@NO PA c] So learning to deal with numbers AND strings AND arrays AND hashes AND
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