172766-173864

172569-180298 subjects 172828-176378

^ Nitro Screencast: Web 2.0, Flickr ignited
172766 [george.mosch] Dear devs,
+ 172966 [matt.mower g] As a suggestion for future video's how about copy & pasting chunks of
| 172969 [george.mosch] You are right, I will improve on this aspect in the future. I will
+ 173280 [jgbailey gma] Another interesting screencast. I don't mind the format so much,
  173611 [george.mosch] the for attribute is 'morphed' at compile time...

^ Rails didn't install correctly
172778 [slitt earthl] I already sent this to the Rails list, but I figure someone here might know
172805 [jonbaer gmai] If I can remember correctly I had to set env variable RUBY_LIB to it's

^ Ruby Curriculum for coworkers
172779 [ssmoot gmail] I've been tasked with coming up with a curriculum for Rails coworkers.
172783 [slitt earthl] [clip]
+ 172787 [james graypr] Hmm, that's a tricky one to me.  You really need to nail iterators
| 172792 [slitt earthl] That's precisely my point. I'm advocating some "corretion". If you start a
| + 172796 [james graypr] It's an interesting idea.
| + 173024 [ jupp gmx.de] for count in 1..9
+ 172790 [bob.news gmx] Although this might be a good move from a pedagogical perspective I feel a
+ 172794 [ssmoot gmail] Thanks for the well thought out and thought-provoking reply!
  + 172799 [bob.news gmx] From what you write it seems MS languages are a better choice than Java as
  | 172855 [ssmoot gmail] I'd agree except that I really need to learn C++. It would really help
  + 172811 [ezmobius gma] Hey-
    172812 [slitt earthl] That URL didn't work, even when I pasted the wordwrapped parts together.
    + 172825 [dandiebolt y] The only problem is that rubyurl does not handle https url correctly.
    + 172886 [perrin apoth] Maybe you just caught it at a time when there was a network hiccup, or

^ Included modules and String
172780 [rjseagraves ] I looked at the RDoc for the String class and found that the class
+ 172782 [james graypr] String iterates over lines of text by default, but that's easily
| 172784 [rjseagraves ] Awesome.  Thanks alot.
+ 172817 [ruby-forum-r] The reason for this is that Enumerable merely wraps the
  172905 [botp delmont] #On Behalf Of Eero Saynatkari

^ Problem with Ruby 1.8.4, C extensions, Solaris
172798 [Daniel.Berge] Solaris 10
172800 [decoux moulo] What give ?
172802 [Daniel.Berge] /usr/sbin/install
172806 [decoux moulo] and
+ 172809 [Daniel.Berge] Regards,
+ 173271 [djberg96 gma] Any more ideas?  Looks like a bug to me in the configure script

^ Looking for advice on IMAP/NTLM support
172801 [rootisreal g] Hey all. I'm somewhat new to Ruby, and need to login to an IMAP server

^ WIN32OLE seems to be broken?
172804 [Brondoman gm] On my current install of ruby (ruby 1.8.2 (2004-12-25) [i386-mswin32])
172808 [greg.kujawa ] Can you please post a snippet of the code that creates this behavior?

^ Rails didn't install correctly
172810 [slitt earthl] I already sent this to the Rails list, but I figure someone here might know

^ [Rails] - how to do SQL
172813 [ m datcom.ch] Up to now I developed some small basic Rails applications. I've always

^ Re: - how to do SQL
172814 [greg.kujawa ] You might have better results posting this to the Rails mailing list at

^ Re: Rails didn't install correctly <FIXED sort of>
172815 [slitt earthl] What I did was reinstalled, but this time without the --include-dependencies.

^ What is the difference between :foo and "foo" ?
172818 [biyokuantum ] I am a Ruby newbie. I wish I didn't post such a simple question here
172819 [aknaub gmail] ...
+ 172822 [slitt earthl] The preceding URL tells me unequivically that symbols aren't strings, but
| + 172826 [james graypr] As one of the people guilty of saying what that article says we
| | + 172835 [rosco roscop] I still think it's a useful description, at least for those of us coming
| | + 172836 [slitt earthl] Oh, I get it!!!
| | | + 172840 [james graypr] This is a fair question I've asked myself once or twice.  Ruby seems
| | | | 172846 [johannes.fri] Depends on the call.
| | | + 172842 [halostatue g] No.
| | |   172844 [james graypr] That's what I suspected as shown in the comments of my last example,
| | + 172864 [jim weirichh] James, you have never been out of my good graces (despite how you
| + 172830 [rosco roscop] I agree with Jim (obviously ;)) that describing symbols as immutable
| | 172892 [gwtmp01 mac.] At the new_haven.rb December meeting, I gave a short presentation on
| + 172833 [billk cts.co] If this helps, attr_reader itself isn't magic or special Ruby syntax,
| + 172841 [johannes.fri] attr_reader :fname, :lname (attr_reader "fname", "lname" works too)
|   172848 [ara.t.howard] i see this claim all the time but never data supporting it, all my test
|   + 172853 [johannes.fri] That's where the 'can be' part comes in :)
|   | 172856 [ara.t.howard] i never consider that as an impl - i bet your right though... time for me to
|   | 172901 [ mfp acm.org] I think :sym.hash uses the method definition from Kernel (inherited through
|   + 172862 [jim weirichh] My benchmark shows symbols to have a slight edge.  I've attached my
|   | 172870 [jim weirichh] Here I am replying to my own posting, but I think this point could use
|   | + 172896 [ mfp acm.org] Keep in mind that symbols are immediate values backed by
|   | + 172917 [twifkak comc] When I first was trying to learn about symbols, attempts to explain
|   |   + 172920 [rdm cfcl.com] I can understand this as a possible implementation, but I
|   |   + 172927 [twifkak comc] - Lacking all those cool String methods like #gsub and #[]
|   + 172916 [johannes.fri] Along with Jim and Mauricio, my tests indicate that symbols are
|   | + 172921 [johannes.fri] jf
|   | | 172924 [ara.t.howard] your test did show symbols being faster on my (linux - 2g cpu, 2g ram) machine
|   | | 172939 [jim weirichh] The difference is that your version measures more than just hash access
|   | | + 172954 [biyokuantum ] Oh, so many replies to my poor question! What a wonderful community!
|   | | | 172976 [slitt earthl] I think it's because A LOT of us were wondering the same thing. In general,
|   | | | 172986 [dblack wobbl] s/RUBY/Ruby/ :-)  In Ruby, P[olicy]OLS refers to what does or does not
|   | | | 172994 [slitt earthl] They wouldn't exist, or they wouldn't be called symbols. If I'm referring to
|   | | | + 172996 [dblack wobbl] s = :sym
|   | | | | 173042 [dblack wobbl] This assertion by me seems to have been mercifully ignored in
|   | | | | + 173065 [ruby-ml magi] This is another bad aspect of Symbol explanations. Sooner or later
|   | | | | | + 173070 [perrin apoth] I disagree.  If the underlying semantic mechanism of a symbol isn't
|   | | | | | | + 173072 [ruby-ml magi] Neither of the above is in any way essential to understanding the
|   | | | | | | | 173080 [perrin apoth] 0. :symbol is to "symbol" as 1 is to "1"
|   | | | | | | | 173101 [johannes.fri] No, you're right.
|   | | | | | | + 173074 [gwtmp01 mac.] I think one of the hardest things to explain/comprehend
|   | | | | | |   173082 [perrin apoth] If you want a useful introductory description of symbols for someone
|   | | | | | |   173087 [gwtmp01 mac.] I wasn't trying to produce a useful introductory description
|   | | | | | |   173091 [perrin apoth] Sorry.  I didn't mean to suggest that you must intend to produce a
|   | | | | | + 173122 [dblack wobbl] "Immediate value" is not a useless or arcane notion.  (And I did *not*
|   | | | | + 173289 [malte__ gmx-] My understanding of things so far was that :sym and 3 are immediate values,
|   | | | |   173337 [chneukirchen] In the current implementation, no.  It doesn't matter to the
|   | | | |   173360 [malte__ gmx-] I'm happy I'm not forced to dig into the details of Ruby's immediate
|   | | | |   173513 [dblack wobbl] a = "string" # a contains a reference to that string
|   | | | |   173519 [gregory.t.br] I decided to throw up some examples for those who like examples.
|   | | | + 172998 [james graypr] You are still confused.  <laughs>
|   | | | + 173000 [khaines enig] It's not a reference.  Symbols are much simpler than that.  Really.  They are
|   | | | | 173008 [slitt earthl] OK, let me see if I'm correctly understanding you.
|   | | | | + 173017 [james graypr] That's an instance variable, not a class variable.
|   | | | | | 173052 [slitt earthl] [clip]
|   | | | | | 173054 [ruby-ml magi] The instance variable is not created by the attr_* statement,
|   | | | | + 173019 [khaines enig] Yep!
|   | | | | + 173020 [halostatue g] No. :wilbur is an object. It has *one* property, itself. You can ask for
|   | | | |   173069 [twifkak comc] Er... a thing that /has/ a name. (That being, Symbol#to_s.)
|   | | | |   + 173071 [twifkak comc] OK, well, I RTFA, and sorry for blatantly contradicting what was an
|   | | | |   | 173073 [ryansobol gm] ri Symbol
|   | | | |   + 173077 [halostatue g] No, I think that the essential property of a Symbol is that it is an
|   | | | |     + 173078 [twifkak comc] Heh, one of my emails to the list got eaten (by a grue?). Let's try this
|   | | | |     | 173084 [perrin apoth] That's something I've been trying to get across in other emails, but I
|   | | | |     | 173088 [gregory.t.br] You know.  I'm tired of hearing about how incorrect everyone is and
|   | | | |     | 173093 [perrin apoth] hallelujah
|   | | | |     + 173081 [gwtmp01 mac.] But 1 (as in the ascii character code 49) is *not* the number/object
|   | | | |       173127 [halostatue g] Um. I was not referring to "1" as in the ASCII value, but "1" in the
|   | | | + 173003 [halostatue g] attr_accessor :foo
|   | | |   + 173012 [slitt earthl] Thanks Austin,
|   | | |   | 173108 [chneukirchen] That just means you didn't dig deep enough into Ruby (yet). ;-)
|   | | |   | 173124 [slitt earthl] Then neither did the 20+ other people, some long time Ruby users, who couldn't
|   | | |   | + 173150 [chneukirchen] Oh, I'm sorry.  I think you got me wrong.  I was refering to the "most
|   | | |   | | + 173154 [janchrister.] Amazing!
|   | | |   | | | 173156 [janchrister.] I guess, he was forgotten somewhere around five :-)
|   | | |   | | | 173160 [gwtmp01 mac.] Yikes.  I hope we don't start behaving like the Slashdot community
|   | | |   | | | 173163 [gregory.t.br] Actually. Not according to ruby-forum.  The message before yours was
|   | | |   | | + 173155 [gregory.t.br] Amen!
|   | | |   | + 173178 [slitt earthl] [clip]
|   | | |   |   + 173180 [halostatue g] A Ruby symbol is a thing that has both a number (integer) and a string.
|   | | |   |   | + 173183 [khaines enig] I think that I am probably the source for this confusion, and I am guilty of
|   | | |   |   | | 173187 [slitt earthl] I could swear that's exactly what I said in the Ruby Newbie Guide to Symbols.
|   | | |   |   | | 173190 [khaines enig] It could be what you said.  :) I am leaving to get a needle stuck into my arm
|   | | |   |   | + 173184 [slitt earthl] I have no idea of the internal representation, but I do know when I use to_s
|   | | |   |   | | 173189 [caleb aei-te] I think the nomenclature of "has" isn't valid because the symbol doesn't
|   | | |   |   | | 173194 [slitt earthl] I understand what you're saying Caleb. Austin -- is that what you meant?
|   | | |   |   | | 173200 [halostatue g] Yes. I've just sent you a VERY lengthy VERY critical review of your
|   | | |   |   | + 173211 [perrin apoth] That depends on how one understands the word "has" in this context.  For
|   | | |   |   |   173223 [halostatue g] Except that by trying to suggest that Symbols "act" a particular way
|   | | |   |   |   + 173225 [perrin apoth] I'm guessing you either didn't read the preceding "you know what I mean"
|   | | |   |   |   | 173226 [halostatue g] No, I *didn't* know what you meant. I still don't. Talking about the
|   | | |   |   |   | 173238 [perrin apoth] Does that help?
|   | | |   |   |   | 173242 [halostatue g] Not really. I think James's description is pretty good, and agree that
|   | | |   |   |   | 173243 [perrin apoth] Let me put it this way, then:  Why don't we remove symbols from the
|   | | |   |   |   | 173245 [halostatue g] Strictly speaking, I do not believe that there is a *need* for them in
|   | | |   |   |   | + 173246 [gregory.t.br] I traded a few emails off list with Chad and he seems to basically be
|   | | |   |   |   | | + 173248 [leavengood g] [further private conversation snipped]
|   | | |   |   |   | | | + 173249 [james_b neur] Recent threads (here and elsewhere) considered, 2006 can't come soon
|   | | |   |   |   | | | + 173250 [gregory.t.br] Whoa! Sorry about that.  That's twice in one day for me :(
|   | | |   |   |   | | + 173252 [perrin apoth] Funny, I don't recall receiving said off-list emails.
|   | | |   |   |   | |   + 173254 [ryansobol gm] Please end this thread, for the sake of all things good and decent.
|   | | |   |   |   | |   | 173255 [gregory.t.br] Agreed.  I apologize for throwing fuel on the fire accidentally.
|   | | |   |   |   | |   + 173256 [gregory.t.br] Look back through this thread, a few of my messages were sent just to
|   | | |   |   |   | + 173251 [perrin apoth] My point exactly: I used sloppy phrasing to try to get a point across,
|   | | |   |   |   + 173227 [james_b neur] After trying to follow all this, I've come to see Symbols as being more
|   | | |   |   |     + 173239 [perrin apoth] That's actually, from what I can see, a very good description -- though
|   | | |   |   |     + 173442 [hal9000 hype] Thanks, James. That's great.
|   | | |   |   |     | 173444 [gregory.t.br] That's interesting.  What version did the Symbol class get added in?
|   | | |   |   |     | 173446 [hal9000 hype] I'm not certain. I guess it was 1.6.
|   | | |   |   |     + 173493 [jwkenne attg] In some ways, a comparison with interned strings in Java can be helpful.
|   | | |   |   + 173209 [perrin apoth] Excellent.  Hopefully, I'm not overstepping myself by sending critiques,
|   | | |   |     + 173210 [james graypr] It was sent to both, actually.
|   | | |   |     | 173213 [perrin apoth] Yeah, I noticed.  I'll go have my time-out in the corner now.
|   | | |   |     + 173212 [perrin apoth] Oops.
|   | | |   + 173013 [aledonne.lis] I think that the same thing that "makes symbols 'special' in the
|   | | |   + 173192 [caleb aei-te] For me, the colon was the most confusing part.  Ignoring the colon, it
|   | | + 173006 [slyphon gmai] This version (I believe) shows that by using a string literal, you're
|   | + 172922 [ara.t.howard] <snip test>
|   + 172956 [rm_rails che] I still wonder if the lack of garbage collection of symbols
+ 172832 [ysantoso-rub] What a coincidence. Seems like Jim and I finally had enough of people
  + 172854 [james_b neur] intention, and (possibly) less error-prone?
  | + 172858 [SimonKroeger] I'm all with you, you may even use
  | + 172860 [johannes.fri] HOST = :host
  | | + 172866 [dandiebolt y] How about devoting the next Ruby Quiz to coming up with the best-of-class examples, self paced-tutorial and documentation to settle the :symbol vs "string" issue? At some point you have to ask yourself are the explanations given so far to inquiring users adequate. The fact that this question keeps coming up must be seen as evidence that there is something lacking in the explanations previously given. At a minimum all the explanations give so far should be edited up into a FAQ entry that the experts can agree upon. Just my two cents.
  | | | + 172869 [ara.t.howard] %w( NORTH SOUTH EAST WEST ).each{|c| const_set c, c}
  | | | + 172925 [james graypr] Hmm, smells like work and documentation combined.  Two evils in one
  | | + 172891 [james_b neur] My hack was a quicky to flesh out the example.  After sending it I
  | + 172867 [ysantoso-rub] I would say that if your language does not provide a means for you to
  + 172909 [ruby-forum-r] While, technically speaking, both of you are absolutely and
    172983 [ysantoso-rub] The initial confusion is simply part of the learning curve rubyists
    + 173005 [perrin apoth] Ever since this discussion started, I've wondered if there was some
    | + 173009 [ef alum.mit.] Yes, I think Ruby symbols and Lisp symbols are the same thing.  The
    | | 173015 [perrin apoth] Thank you.
    | + 173025 [ysantoso-rub] The first line of my journal (third post in this thread) already
    | | 173056 [perrin apoth] It's not really true, though, considering what a symbol is (according to
    | | + 173064 [ruby-ml magi] Nope, Symbols have nothing to do with Hashes. They are often used
    | | | 173068 [perrin apoth] Apparently, a more significant distinction needs to be made between a
    | | + 173075 [ysantoso-rub] Well, what can I say? Symbol is really meant to represent a
    | | | + 173076 [twifkak comc] For the heck of it, I decided to come up with my own Symbol analogy.
    | | | + 173079 [perrin apoth] That would get the point across far more clearly than saying "A symbol
    | | + 173119 [slitt earthl] And now you have identified the crux of all the misunderstanding (and I think
    | |   + 173134 [halostatue g] And what I've been trying to get across, Steve, is that Symbols don't
    | |   | + 173136 [slitt earthl] I plead ignorance on Perl barewords. I use "use strict" every time.
    | |   | + 173203 [perrin apoth] My understanding is that barewords are not persistent atomic elements of
    | |   + 173385 [Bill.Dolinar] I'm somewhat new to ruby, and for me it has made most sense to do an ri
    | |     173394 [rosco roscop] +Symbol+ objects represent names and some strings inside the Ruby
    | |     173436 [Bill.Dolinar] Not at all.  Use whatever parts you would like.
    | + 173028 [johannes.fri] Yes, the concept of a symbol in Ruby is the same as in Lisp. Just as
    |   173492 [mszpak gmail] A symbol in Ruby is similar to a symbol in Lisp in that the symbol is a
    + 173026 [ruby-ml magi] On 2005.12.29 23:37, Yohanes Santoso

^ new project: Ruby Message System (RMS)
172820 [mark.watson ] I have relied on guarenteed delivery asynchronous messaging to build
+ 172821 [wilsonb gmai] How about this?
| + 172824 [jeff.darklig] also there are ruby bindings for spread
| | 172831 [mark.watson ] Thanks for the reference Jeff. Spread looks good, but I did not notice
| + 172834 [mark.watson ] Thanks Wilson.
|   172845 [ara.t.howard] you may want to look at tuple spaces.  i would think it would be about 25
|   172849 [mark.watson ] I used to use both a Linda-like systems and JavaSpaces, so I am
|   172851 [ara.t.howard] please share when you do!
+ 172852 [james_b neur] Any particular reason not to host it at RubyForge.org, with a gem release?
+ 172859 [jeff opendbm] I have always used mail servers to do this in the past. I find the
| 173864 [meta pobox.c] 1. Messages are delivered only once.
+ 172958 [assaf.arkin ] Lightweight reliable messaging in Ruby, support for disk and database
  173286 [mark.watson ] Thanks Assaf.
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