1009-1214

^ Reparenting a block
1009 [Dave thomase] Another block question. Is there any way to re-parent a Proc? For
+ 1010 [fukusima got] Really?
| 1011 [Dave thomase] Indeed it does! I misunderstood instance_eval, and thought you should
+ 1013 [matz netlab.] An Block has the bindings at the point where it appear, including
  1016 [Dave thomase] In fact my interest started after I started poking around inside Tk
  1018 [matz netlab.] It is because of performace/historical reason.
  1019 [Dave thomase] Been there!

^ Is there a standard graphic/icon?
1020 [Dave thomase] If I'm putting together a web page featuring Ruby, is there a standard
1021 [yashi yashi.] I don't know which one is the _official_, but take a look and pick one

^ Tracing attributes
1024 [Dave thomase] I've been playing with a tracing module. One of the things it does is
1025 [matz netlab.] The answers to these questions are both `yes'.

^ Is this a bug?
1026 [Dave thomase] = 1
+ 1028 [gotoken math] Well, what charactor coding system did you used?  Is that iso-8859-1?
| 1029 [Dave thomase] In the email, 8859-1. In the environment where I ran the Ruby script,
| + 1030 [decoux moulo] ruby was perhaps compiled with DEFAULT_KCODE == KCODE_EUC rather than
| | 1032 [decoux moulo] I want to say KCODE_NONE,
| + 1031 [gotoken math] Sorry, I can't find locale POSIX.  If you use Emacs, would you tell me
|   1033 [Dave thomase] nil
|   + 1034 [Dave thomase] But the re module is used to validate identifiers, and setting
|   | 1042 [matz netlab.] How can we pick up one's environment?  LANG?
|   + 1035 [gotoken math] I see, it is iso-8859-1 (Emacs recognized as iso-latin-1-unix).
|     1036 [Dave thomase] Apart from the potential for confusion, I'm worried about
|     1038 [yashi yashi.] sorry to jump in the middle of the discussion but..
|     1041 [Dave thomase] Please do.
+ 1037 [matz netlab.] Because I have no knowledge about iso-8859-1, non ascii characters
  + 1039 [Dave thomase] I recompiled with KCODE=none and it worked fine, rejecting as a
  + 1040 [yashi yashi.] hmm... wouldn't it be better if we change the word "kcode" to more
  | 1045 [matz netlab.] I agree with it.  I'm thinking of `encoding', because Ruby does treat
  + 1043 [gotoken math] You can look all iso-8859-1 characters at

^ 8 bit characters - the plot thickens
1027 [Dave thomase] I'm getting confused.

^ en <-> ja translation site
1044 [yashi yashi.] I just noticed playing Mozilla M12+ that there is a site that traslate

^ Equivalent of 'inject'
1046 [Dave thomase] Now I know I'm being stupid, but I can't see a Ruby equivalent of
1047 [matz netlab.] If I remember correctly, inject works like this, right?

^ Extract args from binding?
1048 [andy Toolshe] Is there an easy way in Ruby to get the arguments of the function
1049 [matz netlab.] Hmm, there's no easy way.

^ Upper case method names
1050 [Dave thomase] This is really picky, but..
+ 1051 [matz netlab.] 5.8 Can I use an idenfier beginning with a capital letter for a
+ 1052 [gotoken math] Yes, you can. But the parentheses need to be put if the number

^ rand() / drand48()
1053 [decoux moulo] I was looking at random.c when I've seen that ruby use drand48() when it's
1055 [matz netlab.] Oops, I haven't noticed that.  You're right.  Here's the patch.
+ 1061 [gotoken math] But your patch is not suitable because a random generator function
| 1063 [matz netlab.] But drand48() family functions, which Ruby uses for most of the case,
| + 1064 [andy Toolshe] Perl's srand defaults to time(0L), but you can also call
| | 1065 [matz netlab.] Perl tries /dev/urandom if available.
| + 1068 [gotoken math] No.  Well, I've thought again, then I can accept the behavoir like
|   1073 [matz netlab.] I don't get it, sorry.  So do you think we should preserve this
|   1074 [gotoken math] Sorry for my unclear words.  I agree your patch now, but you should
|   1075 [matz netlab.] rand(max)
|   1076 [gotoken math] I think that's enough.  Thanks.
+ 1078 [komatsu sari] If HAVE_RANDOM is not defined, `first' would not be defined and
  1081 [matz netlab.] Thank you for the patch.   I'll apply it.

^ ..
1054 [Dave thomase] If I override '..', is it true that I can only use it in functional
1056 [matz netlab.] Yes, and no.
1057 [Dave thomase] Thanks - that makes sense, although I did discover that
1058 [matz netlab.] That is caused by the same bug I mentioned in [ruby-talk:01056].

^ Locales and codesets
1059 [Dave thomase] I'm not an expert on internationalization, so please be patient...
1060 [matz netlab.] They are omitted from English document on purpose.  I consider them as
1062 [gotoken math] I guess we desire M17N rather than I18N.  M17N allows us to use of

^ Forward: Re:  Re: rand() / drand48()
1066 [matz netlab.] I've received a personal reply from Andy.  I'm forwarding it for

^ Here docs not skipping leading spaces
1067 [Dave thomase] I notice the code for stripping leading whitespace from <<-LABEL here
1069 [matz netlab.] Since we couldn't agreed how to remove leading whitespaces, it has
1070 [Dave thomase] 4. The whitespace at the start of the first line in the here document
1071 [yashi yashi.] How do you write if you want to indent the first line like this
1072 [Dave thomase] Well, one of the benefits of passing the text through transparently is

^ [[:alpha:]] and its friends
1077 [Dave thomase] Sorry to keep asking all these stupid questions, but...
1079 [matz netlab.] It's not sutupit at all.  Thank you for the questions.
1080 [Dave thomase] Are \< and \> disabled for the same reason?
1082 [matz netlab.] No, it's because Perl's rule of regexp that all symbolic

^ YADQ (Yet Another Dumb Question)
1083 [Dave thomase] Why don't I get a warning for this (at either global scope or within a
+ 1085 [gotoken math] You are using ruby 1.5?
| + 1086 [Dave thomase] Indeed I am.
| | 1097 [matz netlab.] Even though I abandoned the idea of changing constants into shared
| + 1096 [matz netlab.] I haven't told anybody yet, but I changed my mind and abandoned the
+ 1093 [matz netlab.] =begin off-topic
  + 1094 [clemens.hint] Does that mean, we will not get any warning if this happen in
  + 1095 [Dave thomase] I think the concept of a constant is an important one--constants are
    + 1099 [yashi yashi.] I agree with that.  However, quick search on ruby-dev, unfortunately
    + 1109 [matz netlab.] You can accomplish it by remove_const method
      1110 [Dave thomase] In what circumstances are modules normally reloaded (rather than
      1111 [matz netlab.] I'm thiking of interactive systems like browsers.  This problem was

^ Infinite loop
1084 [Dave thomase] I don't know if this is a bug or expected behavior - I could argue it
1087 [yashi yashi.] it is expected behavior as far as I can tell.  The method Array#=, or
+ 1088 [c.hintze gmx] perhaps I am wrong but I think the problem for Dave is, that it loops
| 1090 [Dave thomase] a = [1,2,3]
| 1092 [clemens.hint] But here we differ in opinion! In my eyes, this *is* necessarily a
| 1098 [matz netlab.] I agree.  This is a bug.
| + 1100 [clemens.hint] To be true, on the first glance I had prefer also the second one. But
| + 1101 [Dave thomase] class Array
|   1102 [clemens.hint] No, please! I consider this a very nice property of Array#hash! But
|   + 1103 [Dave thomase] THe reason it's not inconsistent is that Matz seeded the hash with
|   | 1106 [matz netlab.] Hash would work as long as
|   + 1105 [matz netlab.] Hmm, the only requirement for `hash' method is
|     1113 [decoux moulo] I've not understood, sorry. Do you mean
|     + 1115 [matz netlab.] The former, i.e. forall a and b satisfy a.eql?(b), a.hash and b.hash
|     + 1116 [Dave thomase] a. It's a neat thing, because it makes people stop and go 'oh!'
+ 1089 [Dave thomase] Thanks. I understand the above, though. I was interested that the
  1091 [yashi yashi.] oops, sorry I mis-read you post ;p and thanks Clemens for pointing

^ The value of while...
1104 [Dave thomase] 'while' is an expression, and it always returns 'nil'.
1107 [matz netlab.] Yes.
1108 [Dave thomase] Not now, but I rather like the idea of
1112 [matz netlab.] Well, you need to change the behavior of `break' too.
1114 [Dave thomase] I guess my point is that this is the only place the concept of 'void
1117 [matz netlab.] Hmm, but it's a attribute of the statement which cannot be treated by
+ 1118 [Dave thomase] Let's look at another case. A class definition currently returns a
+ 1119 [c.hintze gmx] Perhaps that is the reason of confusion, IMHO. 'while' should be
  1120 [matz netlab.] In Ruby's syntax, statement is just a special case of a expression
  + 1121 [clemens.hint] No! It is fine as it is :-)
  | 1123 [matz netlab.] Is it?
  | 1150 [schneiker ju] Only if you take that strategy more than a (very) few times. Even when you
  | 1152 [c.hintze gmx] Hmmm! But I think, both could profite from Ruby. Furthermore, coming
  | 1153 [matz netlab.] Maybe easy-to-understand expressive documents in BETTER English will
  | 1154 [clemens.hint] Ehrm ... I have meant, that normally comp.lang.perl... will be very
  + 1122 [Dave thomase] Well we could make it smaller today. Remove the concept of void
  | 1126 [matz netlab.] One does not have to seek smaller.  That's the policy I learned from
  | + 1128 [excalibor de] Sound pretty interesting!
  | + 1131 [Dave thomase] My point was simply that they don't _have_ to be void -- there may be
  |   + 1132 [excalibor de] Well, I find this one pretty elegant, though ;) And original :)
  |   + 1136 [matz netlab.] I get it now.  At present, 'void expressions' are ones introduced by
  |     1138 [Dave thomase] I'd suggest that return's value is the value you're returning, and that
  |     1145 [matz netlab.] It's bit weird for me.  Because I feel returning value cannot be the
  |     1146 [Dave thomase] def fred
  + 1124 [Dave thomase] Sorry to follow up the same post twice, but..

^ Class variables...
1125 [excalibor de] I am brand new to Ruby's world, but I find it pretty interesting... :)
+ 1127 [matz netlab.] Ruby does not have the class variables (yet).
| 1130 [clemens.hint] Answer already send ... :-) We are pro-active today, aren't we? :-)))
| 1133 [excalibor de] I thought Capital case identifiers were constants... Unless Population is a constant Array of 1 value, but the value inside the array is variable... ?
| 1134 [clemens.hint] Your are right. The variable is a constant. That means the content of
+ 1129 [clemens.hint] Class variables...

^ Factory of classes
1135 [excalibor de] I haven't had time to really munch over this, but I thought I give it a try in here in the meantime... :)
1137 [matz netlab.] The built-in Struct class is a such example.
1156 [matz netlab.] Let me explain this code more.

^ Bug in String
1139 [Dave thomase] I think it's because str_replace uses memcpy on an overlapping string
1140 [matz netlab.] Changing memcpy to memmove in rb_str_replace worked well.
1141 [Dave thomase] No... thank you for fixing it ;-)

^ Continuations...
1142 [Dave thomase] I wanted to make sure I understood continuations, so I thought I'd try
+ 1143 [matz netlab.] `again' was set.  `scary' returns twice.  once returns a continuation,
+ 1144 [decoux moulo] You have some examples in the japanese mailing-list. The examples are

^ struct / freeze
1147 [decoux moulo] I can't freeze a struct, it's normal ?
1148 [matz netlab.] Freezing is implemented for arrays, hashes, strings.
1149 [decoux moulo] I was writing a small extension with a hash, and I don't want that the
1151 [matz netlab.] There's no big reason.

^ Toward better English doc's. (Re:  Re: The value of while...)
1155 [manamist whi] Would it be a clue??

^ [´äÀå] Welcome to our (ruby-talk ML)         You are added automatically     
1157 [PENWIZ choll] # guide

^ Is this expected behavior?
1158 [Dave thomase] Playing around with ranges, I bumped into this...
1159 [Dave thomase] Doh... answered my own question - it's a precedence thing.
1160 [matz netlab.] Do you prefer
1161 [Dave thomase] In general, I get nervous when whitespace makes that big a difference,
1165 [matz netlab.] The parser works very short sightedly.  It is easy to throw warning on
1166 [Dave thomase] I doubt it ;-)

^ Possible bug in ruby-man-1.4
1162 [Dave thomase] Returns remainder of the numbers. In case either number is
1167 [matz netlab.] You are right.  I'd like to hear your opinion about this.
1168 [Dave thomase] Well, I guess it comes down to what you mean by an integer
1171 [matz netlab.] Agree with it.  According to the principle of less surprise, I'll
1172 [wang rjka.co] does this have anything to do with the following?
+ 1173 [Dave thomase] Sure is!
+ 1176 [matz netlab.] Yes, but precedence of ** operater is usually higher than unary minus
  1177 [Dave thomase] Now there's a problem ;-(
  + 1178 [matz netlab.] That is the current behavior (without optimization).
  | + 1179 [Dave thomase] Is that true, though?  1 + -2 seems to invoke 1.+, passing in negative
  | | + 1181 [Dave thomase] Ooops. I'm wrong here. The tUMINUS Fixnum reduction only occurs when
  | | + 1182 [matz netlab.] Sounds interesting, but maybe too danger.  Let me think about.
  | + 1180 [matz netlab.] Oops, I made mistake,
  + 1184 [gotoken math] Intuitively, -2**2 represents the mathematical notation

^ Pack options
1163 [andy Toolshe] Just a quick question about "pack".  In the source, there a couple
1164 [aamine dp.u-] The M flag is "quoted printable" encoding, used in MIME message.

^ undef_method vs. remove_method
1169 [Dave thomase] OK - I guess I need to understand the source a bit better. What's the
1170 [matz netlab.] `undef_method' makes a method undefined, `remove_method' removes it.

^ == and eql?
1174 [Dave thomase] Can anyone think of a circumstance in the distributed Ruby library
1175 [matz netlab.] They are basically same except small difference in behavior on mixed

^ removing tainting
1183 [Dave thomase] Should the following sequence remove tainting?
1185 [matz netlab.] Oops, it's a bug.

^ Bug in chardev?
1186 [Andy Toolshe] Either I'm going blind, or there's a bug in File::Stat.chardev?
1187 [matz netlab.] Yes, it's a bug.

^ Enumerable and index
1188 [Dave thomase] Should there be a method Enumerable#index? It's documented in the 1.4
1189 [gotoken math] `index' is not helpful because one cannot access the object after
1190 [Dave thomase] I guess this is the difference between Iterable and
1191 [gotoken math] From the other point of veiw, most methods of Enumerable requires of
1192 [Dave thomase] If I understand your argument, then, enumerable _should_ have index

^ Semantics of chomp/chop
1193 [Dave thomase] I was wondering about the semantics of Kernel#chomp and
1194 [matz netlab.] Since there's no way to detect whether rb_str_chomp_bang will success,
1195 [Dave thomase] I was wondering why copy it at all, as all four methods are allowed to
+ 1196 [decoux moulo] $&
| 1204 [matz netlab.] No.  It should be `the last pattern match attempt'.
+ 1203 [matz netlab.] foo = $_ = "foo\n"
  1205 [Dave thomase] True enough - I wasn't thinking about an external reference to the

^ Question about 'open'
1197 [Dave thomase] f = open("|-", "w+")
+ 1198 [decoux moulo] I'm not really sure, but the block is executed in the parent process.
| 1199 [Dave thomase] D'accord! But I'm wondering why it is. The semantics of the open have
| 1200 [decoux moulo] i.e. make a special case for - ?
| 1201 [Dave thomase] Actually, I'd say that |<cmd> is the special case. The normal action
+ 1202 [matz netlab.] Oops, I forgot to execute a block in child process.
  1206 [Dave thomase] Should I be applying these patches you're kindly generating, or will
  1207 [matz netlab.] It will be merged into CVS tree in few days.

^ File#flock
1208 [decoux moulo] LOCK_EX
1209 [matz netlab.] No, File#flock is based on system call flock(2), which does not aware
1210 [decoux moulo] pigeon% cat b.rb
1211 [matz netlab.] I see.  File#flock can be used to exclude control flow within same
1212 [decoux moulo] OK, I've understood.

^ c-call and call in trace_func
1213 [Dave thomase] I'm trying to understand the difference between c-call and call events
1214 [matz netlab.] `c-call' for C defined method calls, `call' for for Ruby defined