In article <401D4F5E.70704 / po.cwru.edu>, Dan Doel  <djd15 / po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>Michael campbell wrote:
>
>> No one said that.
>
>
>Yes, I was exaggerating for effect. :)
>
>> If it doesn't grow, it will eventually die.
>
>Will it? Is Smalltalk still growing today? 

Squeak seems to be building some excitement...

>It probably hasn't grown
>for quite some time, yet it's still around if you want to learn it.
>How about Eiffel? People are even moving away from C and C++, but I
>doubt they'll be dead for many years to come.
>
>In any case (and this is a reply to several posts, not just yours),
>Ruby will get popular some day. Or maybe it won't, and we'll either
>continue to talk about it here and use it from time to time just
>because it's a nice language, or we'll move on to something else.
>The world will go on.
>

Yes it will.

>What we don't need to do is organize a big campaign to get Ruby
>awareness up. 

So Ruby awareness will just grow on it's own without any effort from us? 
It'll just happen?  I don't think so.

>We don't need to contact big players like IBM and
>whoever to push Ruby for all sorts of programming -- "Look, it
>was made for scripting but you should use it for OS programming and
>high speed graphics too!" 

I don't think anyone is contacting big players and proposing that Ruby be 
used for things it's not suited for, and they shouldn't.
But what about proposing Ruby for things that it _is_ good for? 


>We don't need to go into Slashdot stories
>or forums about other languages and post messages going "Ruby rox!
>Go check it out!"

No, but why not visit other forums and make intelligent comments about 
Ruby (backing them up with facts about the language).  I think there are 
many opportunities to do this in an appropriate way.  Nobody's going to 
pay much attention to a post on a forum that says "You should use Ruby 
because it rox!", but if you suggest why Ruby makes sense for the given 
application space it will be received positively.

>
>Everyone hates evangelists except for those who are already in the
>religion. They get offended that you're implying your beliefs are
>better than theirs. If someone's curious about Ruby, or wants a
>language suggestion, tell them to check it out, but don't become
>an evangelist.

It all depends on how the evangelizing is done.  I would submit that we 
_do_ need Ruby evangelists, but they need to evangelize 'nicely' and 
intelligently.  I know that a few years back there was an article going 
around about how language evangelism is just terrible bad and must be 
avoided at all costs, but I wonder if it caused us to go too far in the 
other direction. "I'm not going to even mention Ruby as an option because 
I don't want to be seen as an evangelist".  The more people hear about 
Ruby, the more likely it is that they'll try it.

We've all seen plenty of examples of superior commercial products that 
died due to poor marketing.

So please _do_ write articles, post messages to other forums and even to 
Slashdot.  If we aim to be invisible, we will be.

>
>In the mean time, posts like, "Python is 25 times more popular than
>Ruby" or "Ruby needs Python indenting to be popular!" just waste time.
>Ruby will either get there, or it won't, based on whether it's worthy
>or not. Don't worry so much about how long it takes.
>

Some of us have been waiting longer than others...

bottom line:
I'd like to be able to recommend Ruby for work projects and not get 
'never heard of it' comments and questions about where would they find 
Ruby programmers if I were hit by a bus.  I'd like to hear, "Ruby, 
excellent suggestion, go with it".  Right now that's not the case - it's 
an uphill battle, but sometimes we do win.

Phil