avi / beta4.com (Avi Bryant) wrote in message news:<6e869a6b.0308161015.3827ae54 / posting.google.com>...
> "Its Me" <itsme213 / hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<d18%a.190441$xg5.136669 / twister.austin.rr.com>...
> 
> > I am not convinced that there is a deep tradeoff of environment Vs. language
> > expressiveness and dynamism. The Lisp world back in the 80's had a
> > combination of superb environment (easily comparable to Smalltalk) and heavy
> > use of arbitrarily sophisticated code generation (Lisp macros). All parts of
> > the environment, including the debugger, were amazingly macro aware.
> 
> This is drifing off topic, but I'd like to know more.  Was the LispM
> environment truly comparable to (modern) Smalltalk?

No it was very different.

>  Current Lisp
> environments (I've used Allegro and LispWorks) really don't come
> close, especially when it comes to tools like version control - what's
> the Lisp equivalent of ENVY or StORE?

The Symbolics Lisp Machine had a source construction tool (SCT)
with versions and patch support and there was a versioning system
for source (VC).

>  Or, since that's where this
> thread started, of the Refactoring Browser?

There was some refactoring stuff in Zmacs. But not that much.

> I'm not trying to get into a pissing match here - Lisp is wonderful,
> and there are lots of things in CL (and in Scheme, and in Ruby for
> that matter) that I miss in Smalltalk.  But I honestly do think that
> Smalltalk hits a sweet spot in terms of tool support, and I have a
> hard time imagining how certain tools would work in the Lisp world -
> like versioning by semantic chunks instead of raw text/s-exprs.  If
> those problems were in fact solved back in the 80s, I'd love to hear
> about it.

Well, in terms of features the Lisp Machines will be good for
some surprises. It might be educational to read a bit about
InterLisp D from Xerox and/or Genera from Symbolics.
Here is a Quicktime movie with some audio comment,
demoing some of Genera - actually really only a tiny bit:
 http://lispm.dyndns.org:8000/mov/lispm-2.mov or
 http://lispm.dyndns.org:8000/mov/lispm-2a.mov