You answered it well.  It doesn't mesh well with your experience.  The
opinions below disclaim any experience.  QED.

Despite the disclaimer, some of the claims are a bit grand, demonstrating
a very poor understanding of Ruby's heritage.  It's pretty common that if
someone only understands language X, they will only see the aspects of
Ruby that resonate with language X.  It takes an open mind and some
experience to overcome this natural human limitation.  At the end of the
day, the notion that Ruby encourages archaic and uncommunicable code is
perverse.

For the WebObjects-like framework, I assume he is referring to CGIKit, a
fine package, to be sure, but a bit beyond my understanding at the moment.
 It is actively developed, but not, to my knowledge, actively discussed,
which is a shame.

If there were a few useful, public webapps written in Ruby using this and
other frameworks, with source code published and documented, I'd die a
happy man...

Gavin


> hmmm, this doesn't mesh terribly well with my experience.  Anyone else
> care to take a crack at answering it?
>
> -pate
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:07:21 -0400
> From: Anil R. Diwan <adiwan / snet.net>
> Reply-To: devculture / lists.whirlycott.com
> To: devculture / lists.whirlycott.com
> Subject: Re: [Devculture] ruby question - try Python also
>
> I looked at Ruby with great interest. I was dismayed by the insufficient
> development in Ruby and poor support for many good things it has.
> For Web development, the best project going on in Ruby is a replacement
> of the JSP/ASP like architecture of web pages with an architecture which
> cleanly separates the HTML page portion and the Ruby class that fills it
> in. The ideas they have used are really clever. They claim they took
> inspiration from Webobjects. However, I did not see any further
> development in that project (last year). Then I saw Ruby trying to copy
> JSPs!!!
> CONS of RUBY:
> Ruby allows you to use MANY different coding syntaxes - It supports PERL
> like syntax as also Python like syntax among others. This WILL make the
> Ruby code archaic and uncommunicable across large teams when the teams
> are brought together by hiring consultants as they generally are.
> The syntax issues and support for mechanics of both PERL like and Python
> like stuff makes programming more interesting to people who like to
> write compact code undecipherable to others (read - job security as a
> PRO item here).
>
> My current favorite, after looking at a large number of languages is
> Python or Jython, depending upon whether you want access to Java are you
> are happy with the available C code base. Jyhton in particular sits as a
> interpreter/compiler on top of the JVM. You write Python code in Jython,
> run it like a script, and then you can even ask Jython to produce Java
> Source code from what you wrote! All Java classes can be called from the
> Python side. And you write compact code in the beautiful python
> language.
>
> Python has excellent syntax (Ruby derived its syntax pretty much fully
> from Python, and added the Perlish stuff). It is a TRUE Object-oriented
> language offering first class objects like in SmallTalk or Haskell, that
> can modify behavior by runtime binding with a type or class, and
> inheriting at run time. Despite its roots as a scripting language, it
> actually is an object-oriented language, unlike Java and C++. [Java and
> C++ are Class oriented languages, as opposed to Object oriented
> languages].
> Coding in Python is compact, and Python provides a lot of facilities.
> Also because of Jython, its acceptance will rise (I hope). Jython is
> also an easy way to write Java code.
>
> I have not coded in either Ruby or Python, so all comments are based on
> reading and learning the language.
>
> Sincerely,
> - anil r. diwan
> adiwan / snet.net
> Cell: (203) 606-9180
> ---
> Anil R. Diwan, Ph.D.
> Chief Technology Officer
>
> AllExcel, Inc.
> 135 Wood St., Ste.200
> West Haven, CT 06516.
> Tel&Fax: (203) 937-6137.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> by mistake, please notify by replying to this e-mail and delete the
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: WHIRLYCOTT <phil / whirlycott.com>
> Reply-To: devculture / lists.whirlycott.com
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:42:39 -0400
> To: devculture / lists.whirlycott.com
> Subject: [Devculture] ruby question
>
>
> I was just going to send this email to my friend Pat Eyler directly, but
> I remembered that he's on this list and that others here may be
> interested in this.... maybe ;)
>
> Anyway, my question is about Ruby.  I'm wondering what it would offer
> me, since I do most of my work in weblike environments and use all sorts
> of funny stuff.  I've compiled a laundry list and I'm wondering if Pat
> knows about the answers to any of this... while I'm digging some of this
> up myself.
>
> Does Ruby have...? / How strong is ruby in the area of...?
>
> - SOAP support
> - XML support
> - inline web page building like asp/php/jsp
> - database access
> - application server type features for data caching, database
> connection pooling, session management ala j2ee/mod_perl/php
>
> Just wondering what Pat may have run into during the course of his
> travels... if others have experiences with Ruby as well, I'd like to
> hear about them.
>
> phil.
>
> --
>                                   Whirlycott
>                                   Philip Jacob
>                                   phil / whirlycott.com
>                                   http://www.whirlycott.com/phil/
>
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