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On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 05:59:20PM +0900, Andrea Dallera wrote:
>=20
> Well, good advice is good advice and Ryan gave you plenty, for free. In
> this case being an asshole is just damaging *him*, since you pretty
> much got what you wanted and he's the one who came off as high and
> mighty.

I agree -- but:


>=20
> I honestly feel that we, as programmers, don't need all that "feel good"=
=20
> bullshit that permeates pretty much all other engineering fields. Ryan's =
been=20
> an "asshole" on this list to me too, but a *right* asshole and that is al=
l=20
> that matters to me.

Meanwhile, I was trying to be helpful, if not particularly diplomatic in
the process, by pointing out that being an asshole has consequences.  I
*also* thanked him a couple of times where good advice was given, and
while I was undiplomatic I was also not taking a belittling attitude
toward him.


>=20
> Please don't be offended by this kind of behaviour, it's what keeps our c=
raft=20
> afloat and alive.

No, it's not.  I have pretty thick skin; I can take it.  I do not think
that being an asshole helps keep "our craft afloat and alive", though.  I
think being right does not necessitate being an asshole.  Even when I
come off as arrogant and self-righteous, I am not an *asshole*; I do not
start out in a response to someone who is geinuinely asking for help and
willing to admit the faults in his or her code by trying to make him or
her feel stupid and unworthy.  I only try to make people feel stupid and
unworthy when they demonstrate a relentless desire to ignore any and all
good advice.

Ryan may be knowledgeable, and he did give me *some* good advice.  On the
other hand, he made unwarranted assumptions about the needs of my code,
conflates his own personal desire to write Perl in Ruby with a One True
Coding Style, and acted like a grade A shitheel.  I know programmers who
are probably twice the programmer he is (at minimum) who give better
advice and are much nicer about it, proving that being an asshole is not
a prerequisite for being good.

Here's a nice test of whether he's also a hypocrit:

Will he take good advice (stop being an asshole) after I took his own
good advice (without taking his bad advice)?

In any case, it's worth noting that my thanks were genuine.  I'm glad he
responded with some good advice buried amidst his eagerness to behave
badly, and made use of that advice.  I'd be happier getting more asshole
attitude coupled with good advice from him than getting a good attitude
with no good advice.  I don't see why that would mean I shouldn't point
out when he's being an asshole, though.

--=20
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]

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On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 05:59:20PM +0900, Andrea Dallera wrote:
>=20
> Well, good advice is good advice and Ryan gave you plenty, for free. In
> this case being an asshole is just damaging *him*, since you pretty
> much got what you wanted and he's the one who came off as high and
> mighty.

I agree -- but:


>=20
> I honestly feel that we, as programmers, don't need all that "feel good"=
=20
> bullshit that permeates pretty much all other engineering fields. Ryan's =
been=20
> an "asshole" on this list to me too, but a *right* asshole and that is al=
l=20
> that matters to me.

Meanwhile, I was trying to be helpful, if not particularly diplomatic in
the process, by pointing out that being an asshole has consequences.  I
*also* thanked him a couple of times where good advice was given, and
while I was undiplomatic I was also not taking a belittling attitude
toward him.


>=20
> Please don't be offended by this kind of behaviour, it's what keeps our c=
raft=20
> afloat and alive.

No, it's not.  I have pretty thick skin; I can take it.  I do not think
that being an asshole helps keep "our craft afloat and alive", though.  I
think being right does not necessitate being an asshole.  Even when I
come off as arrogant and self-righteous, I am not an *asshole*; I do not
start out in a response to someone who is geinuinely asking for help and
willing to admit the faults in his or her code by trying to make him or
her feel stupid and unworthy.  I only try to make people feel stupid and
unworthy when they demonstrate a relentless desire to ignore any and all
good advice.

Ryan may be knowledgeable, and he did give me *some* good advice.  On the
other hand, he made unwarranted assumptions about the needs of my code,
conflates his own personal desire to write Perl in Ruby with a One True
Coding Style, and acted like a grade A shitheel.  I know programmers who
are probably twice the programmer he is (at minimum) who give better
advice and are much nicer about it, proving that being an asshole is not
a prerequisite for being good.

Here's a nice test of whether he's also a hypocrit:

Will he take good advice (stop being an asshole) after I took his own
good advice (without taking his bad advice)?

In any case, it's worth noting that my thanks were genuine.  I'm glad he
responded with some good advice buried amidst his eagerness to behave
badly, and made use of that advice.  I'd be happier getting more asshole
attitude coupled with good advice from him than getting a good attitude
with no good advice.  I don't see why that would mean I shouldn't point
out when he's being an asshole, though.

--=20
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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