Too long, didn't read



On Jan 8, 2009, at 9:19 PM, Tim Greer <tim / burlyhost.com> wrote:

> Larz wrote:
>
>>>
>>> At this point, most language debates come down to opinion and
>>> assumption.  I don't believe that Perl is an old language that's
>>> going
>>> to fade away, while ruby becomes more popular.  But, that's just my
>>> own
>>> view/opinion.  I wasn't saying it because it's more mature and has
>>> some
>>> existing modules that maybe don't exist for Ruby or anything.  I
>>> might be wrong about how in demand Perl will or will not be, just
>>> like my
>>> opinion abut ruby and other languages.  Neither opinion will make it
>>> more or less likely, so we'll all have to see.  Just remember, there
>>> are plenty of new jobs in Perl, too (not just older code people are
>>> hired to maintain).
>>> --
>>
>> There will be work in perl for many years no doubt, before I found
>> out about ruby I had many perl books and was up in the air if I'd
>> rather look for work in Java or Perl, but I would characterize perl
>> this way:
>>
>>
>> There's programmers who like to believe ruby is just hype and some
>> sort of cult and don't want to spend the time to learn something new
>> or even just find out about it, they have a strong attachment to what
>> they already know.
>>
>>  There are many people who have no interest in learning anything new
>> if they have to spend their own time and money studying it. They will
>> only learn new things if the company tells them to or sends them to a
>> class, or maybe if they are desperate and need to find a job.
>>
>>  Managers who see training people in new things or asking them to
>> learn new things as something of a problem .. They want to hire  
>> people
>> who have all the skills they need and try to stick with whatever  
>> skill
>> sets their workers already have. People trying to advocate new
>> technology may be ostracized. I worked with a number of people who
>> refused to learn perl and wanted to do everything with shell scripts,
>> and they wrote giant unwieldy ugly shell scripts that where totally
>> laughable, and yet management accepted their lame explanations of why
>> it would take them several weeks to get some project to work
>> correctly. I could not say anything to the contrary as it was all
>> political and I would have gotten in trouble.
>>
>> Then there are sysadmins who write an occasional perl script and have
>> no real incentive to go beyond that, that may be fairly  
>> understandable
>> as long as they don't have to develop alot of large apps.
>>
>> So there maybe alot of legacy perl code out there, and all of the
>> people mentioned above are not really programmers who have their  
>> heart
>> in programming enough to want to use the best technology and try to
>> excel towards excellence in development based on object oriented
>> programming and paradign that's validity can't be denied, though they
>> will try to anyway.
>>
>> Sometimes you are stuck on a machine that the admins won't let you
>> install what you want to use, but other than that I would never want
>> to work at a company that wanted to develop some new app in perl.
>>
>> If the economy was to be so bad that you had to learn old technology
>> to get a job, that would seem sad, though the IT industry has all
>> kinds of ups and downs. One year you might hear college students are
>> shying away from CS because of the poor IT sector, a few years later
>> they'll say IT jobs are the future ..
>
> Your entire response is based on your own opinions.  I don't recall  
> care
> if people like is dislike any certain language, but just like saying
> people in other languages claim ruby is all hype, there are those that
> buy into the claim that languages like Perl are fading away --
> especially when you say things like "I would never want to work at a
> company that wanted to develop some new app in perl."  That's
> preposterous.  You can replace Perl in that sentence with PHP, C, C++,
> Python, Java, etc.  It's all personal view.
>
> In fact, one could say the same thing about another language and use
> "ruby" in the example of "never wanting to work at a company that uses
> ruby".  The passion, ignorance and arrogance regarding "language wars"
> goes both ways.  It's pretty short sighted to call Perl "old
> technology" because you happen to like Ruby more.  I don't know why
> people can't be more reasonable and less biased.  I prefer Perl, but
> I'm not here talking badly about ruby -- I'm here because I use it,
> too.  Therefore, there's no reason to get defensive or think you need
> to slam another language.  Perl is hardly old, just because it's  
> older.
> Ruby has been around for a very long time as well, so I guess by your
> logic, it's technically ran its course, too?
>
> Seriously, who cares?  No one said the OP should learn Perl instead of
> ruby, and of course there will be support and bias toward ruby, since
> this is a ruby group.  It's all about choice and preference.  If you
> want to get down to the base of the debate that appears to have  
> evolved
> from the question (big surprise there), then people shouldn't be
> encouraged to use a different language just because someone else finds
> it interesting, or because it is newer (that doesn't make it better).
> That's usually the reason why, and people shouldn't drop the idea of
> developing a project in languages they know well, just to code in a
> newer language someone else is excited about.  The project should be
> coded the most efficient, secure and stable as possible, which means
> sticking to what you know.  If you know ruby better, use ruby.  If you
> have the time and find ruby interesting, learn it anyway.  It never
> hurts to get good at something you might not be good at now (in which
> case a lot of people could actually benefit from learning Perl, or  
> PHP,
> or Java, if they know ruby and have the desire and motivation to learn
> something else).
>
> As for legacy code, there are a lot of languages that have legacy  
> code,
> some not very good -- and that includes ruby.  Some people can code
> well and some can not.  Some people abandon code and some do not.  I
> really fail to see how one has to do with another.  If you like heavy
> OO type programming languages, then yeah, ruby would probably suit you
> better than Perl or PHP.  If you don't agree or don't care, then there
> are a lot of other languages that work equally as well, which aren't
> going anywhere.  In closing, check the statistics and there are a lot
> more larger sites that most people online use daily that are developed
> in Perl (yes, new code developed today and more yesterday), being so
> much for your theory that you'd not work for any company that  
> developed
> new applications in Perl.  You may as well denounce any new
> applications coded in Python, PHP, C, C++, Java, too.  I get it, you
> like ruby, you don't care for Perl, that's fine with me, but keep the
> claims on level and fair.  There's no anti-ruby witch hunting in this
> thread, so practice what you preach.  Since no one's coming up with
> untrue reasons why ruby isn't for them, why state your opinion about
> Perl as being factual?  Don't be so closed minded that you trash talk
> languages you don't agree with, because it makes you no better than  
> the
> Perl programmers you mention whom unfairly trash talk ruby.  They are
> both good languages and neither are going anywhere.
> -- 
> Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
> Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
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>