On Aug 10, 2008, at 8:50 AM, Victor Reyes wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 6:47 AM, Trans <transfire / gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James Britt <james.br... / gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. "Community
>>> leaders" is an illusion; if you think there's a need for such a  
>>> list, go
>>> lead.
>>
>> That's sorely wrong. For the Ruby community, knowing that matz stands
>> behind something makes a HUGE difference. Being able to add the list
>> to the ruby-lang.org website is essential --and is controlled by matz
>> and friends.
>>
>> That's not to say an unofficial list is not be possible, it just  
>> would
>> be 100x harder to make effective --and for that, I doubt anyone  
>> really
>> has the time and energy for; and it certainly could not be me. I'm  
>> not
>> well liked by the community. In fact, the fact that *I* suggested it
>> pretty much guarantees that it will never happen. Ha ha! My devious
>> plan takes effect, Ruby will never have a beginner/expert list! ...
>> (just kidding)
>>
>> T.
>>
>>
> This post is not address to anyone in particular but I wish to get  
> answers
> from everyone, specially the non-beginners!
>
> I normally don't get involve on this type of "theological"  
> discussions,
> specially since I am no more than a mere and simple beginner, and I  
> feel
> that I can't add anything to the big brainier discussion. That been  
> said, I
> have a problem with a beginner list:
>
>
>   1. Would a beginner question receives a beginner's answer?

Having participated on the Perl Beginners list for years, I will  
answer from that perspective.

The answer is:  we sure hope so!  If beginners learn some point and  
then share that with others, the whole community wins.  To me, this is  
one of the big signs of healthy community growth.

Of course, experts would also be available to answer questions as  
well.  That's another needed element.

>   2. How are we going to understand/learn new techniques and  
> creativity
>   which only the non-beginner posses? Please don't be arrogant and  
> tell me to
>   learn it like you did! Although I know that this not your problem,  
> some
>   people, like I, at times needs to see examples.

There are several members on the Perl Beginners list who are well  
known experts in the community.  If we couldn't get any of our own  
experts to join in such an effort, it would be a sign that our  
community is quite broken, in my opinion.  Many of us enjoy helping  
others and would gladly join and help answer questions.

>   3. When would a beginner like I be permitted into the big boys
>   (non-beginner) club?

Whenever you decide you are ready, even if that's on day one.  As  
other's have suggested, tracking both may be a great idea.

>   4. What's wrong with being a beginner?
>
> In the past I have learn interesting techniques from you, big boys,
> non-beginners and I wish I could continue to count on that. I have  
> received
> answers from some of the Ruby book authors and from some of the Ruby
> packages developers, also from just fun loving Ruby hackers, and YES  
> from
> beginners to.

There's absolutely nothing at all wrong with being a beginner.  If we  
removed all beginners from the community it would eventually die, so I  
think they are quite important.

The issue is that the Ruby community has exploded with growth lately.   
With that, the signal to noise ratio of these lists has shifted some.   
This has had some negative effects for everyone.  First, many experts  
have retreated to other places after being overwhelmed.  As you've  
already pointed out, that hurts the beginners ability to get good  
answers.  Also, many beginners are probably a little intimidated by  
the new volume and sometimes less inviting tone.  Giving them a more  
welcoming place to pose questions and receive help could be a big win,  
if more of them felt comfortable there.

> If a person considers that a question is too simple and s(he) does  
> not wants
> to waste time on it, skip it. If your arrogance does not let you see  
> your
> feet, well good for you.
> But please let us beginners feel comfortable and let Ruby grow with  
> our
> stupid questions!

You are and always will be welcome here.  We're just discussing if  
there are other ways we can add to that.  Please don't take offense.

James Edward Gray II