M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: >> Total size of downloads: 165,416 kB So, having done the empirical measurement of starting the bittorrent download of the Win32 version (I'm sticking to my gaming partition while on vacation), I got download speeds of 300-400 kB/s over a 4 Mbit connection. The Linux x86-64 swarm needs some loving, but local Ubuntu repositories still reach around 220 kB/s download speeds without a problem. 10-20 minutes download time, not stellar, but fits into a lunch break. I've pulled single MP3 files that size through the connection. That's roughly two hours at 192 kbps - a not uncommon size for a DJ gig ripped off webradio. And those sure as hell crop up more often than new Eclipse versions. It falls into the tolerance limit for me. YMMV. What's important -for me- is that Eclipse does deliver in features (and then some), and does so without getting in the way for most of my usage scenarios - the only necessary evil in the way to editing code I feel is setting up a new project to tell Eclipse where in the filesystem to look when using Open Resource. I honestly could care less about download size if it's downloadable in reasonable down-time, and about performance if it runs fast enough on hardware I work on. I can also very well understand the decision to make RDT and RADRails Eclipse plugins. Java development bloatware or not, it probably has an amazing amount of resources for tool development included, and you don't have to reinvent the wheel with project management, version control integration, code template support, and the list could go on and on. You can concentrate on just making it support Ruby, and I could invoke the DRY principle here, which probably holds more value than not-quite-tangible lightweight / heavyweight "language attitude" arguments when deciding how to implement a fairly complex tool. (SWT also looks better than FOX if you're being aesthetic.) A fourth of the download size was Seamonkey. Which sounds a lot like a packaging problem, or something on the Mozilla side of things. I can't believe you need all that to be able to embed Gecko into SWT. PS: If trying out, go for Eclipse 3.1. 3.0 was rather slow, and 3.2 is still early adoption and needs to have some kinks worked out. David Vallner