Eric and Ryan, You guys got it backwards, man. I easily deal with all the messages precisely because I don't receive any emails at all! I use Google Groups, personally, but there's also Gmane and news2mail.com (and others probably). But Google Groups only works if the gateway is up. Which means right now I'm forced to do a separate email and thus this message won't be properly linked to it's reference post. A proper gateway should reference correctly. Also, even using email, you should not be receiveing two copies of every post when the gateway working. Something's not working as it should if you are. As for increased noise to signal. We have lots on "nubys" now becuase of Rails. That's not the lists fault or the gateway's fault. If anything at all should be done about it, it would mean creating a separate nuby list, or v-v, an experts list. But then you have the problem of those two groups communicating less --which isn't really good either. T.