Hal Fulton <hal9000 / hypermetrics.com> wrote:
> In fact, I am not opposed to learning both. At the moment
> I haven't time, but later maybe I will. It's a language, not
> a religion.

I'm tried both as well.  In fact, I was directed to ruby by
a poster on c.l.py...

> His use of "hyperenthusiast" is interesting. Does it apply
> only to non-Python people?

He probably means "fanboy", but was put off by Python's "one and
only one reasonable way" of doing things.  :)

> As for the "Ruby has better OO" argument -- Pythonists call it
> FUD, but it appears simple common sense (from what Python I've
> seen).  But I think a large part of that is that Ruby and
> Python are evolutionarily different.  I've heard -- this may
> be wrong -- that Python's OO descends from Modula-3 or some
> such. I can't comment. I do know that it seems less OO than
> Ruby to me (or Java, C++, Object Pascal).

I'm tempted to join in the "Python OO is weak" chant.  But your
last point, that they are simply different approaches, is valid,
and I shall refrain... for now.

> As for significant whitespace -- surely it's a matter of
> opinion whether this is the "right" way or not. One can make
> arguments in both directions.  I was initially drawn to the
> idea, but after playing with it, I found it had its drawbacks.

There are two things that I think python got absolutely *right*:
One is Python's ternary expressions ("if 0 < x < 10:"), which
have functional equivalents in Ruby.  The other is significant
whitespace.

I think this has to do with the fact that Python, being derived
from an educational language, imposes educational practices on
its code; it's also quite possible that if modern educational
languages focused more on actually teaching good practices and
style, and less on making sure they use the latest GUI toolkit
endorsed by Microsoft/Sun, I wouldn't have such a strong opinion
on the matter.

> Most (human) languages are written left to right. Are Arabic
> and Hebrew "wrong" because they aren't?

    puts "#$your_way sucks" unless
        $your_way.equal?( $my_way )   # :)

That said,

I've been a Ruby hobbyist for about 4 or 5 years now, and I had
no idea what "Rails" was until recently.  I knew that traffic in
c.l.r had more than tripled in recent months, and that instead
of the normal Ruby idiom/syntax/language questions, I started
seeing a lot of configuration questions about some application
framework apparently based on ruby.

I'm glad ruby is getting the attention I believe it deserves.
And I've seen some exciting things happen in the core language.
But Rails is a framework.  Ruby is a language.  Many dozens of
developers churn out Rails applications without ever really
knowing much more than tutorial-level Ruby.  And as a web
development framework, it can't escape being a fad.  Some fads
fade into obscurity (ASP, HTML::Mason, or *gasp* Zope), and some
fade into oblivion (ColdFusion).  Even PHP's seeming Golden Age
will eventually pass, and either pass its torch, or burn out.

I've played with Rails, and find it fascinating.  And hopefully
it will grow and evolve and influence technology, and we will
learn and benefit, but it will fade.  I only hope Ruby doesn't
invest all of itself in this trend and fade with it.

You could all spend another 20-30 post thread psychoanalyzing my
article and extrapolating information about how I was abused by
Zope as a child, or we could get back to what brought us here
originally, which is having fun with a great language and the
great tools it brings with it.

</rant>

My USD$0.05,
Tim Hammerquist