Hugh Sasse wrote:

>   This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable
>   text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without
>   MIME-aware tools.

    ^^-- Why, oh, why?

> On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Nikolai Weibull wrote:

> > Gavin Sinclair wrote:

> > > Mark Volkmann wrote:

> > > I created that list and intended it to be for developers.  User
> > > questions are welcome on the list, but I reckon user questions (of
> > > the vim-ruby stuff) are welcome on this list as well.

> > That assumes that every project maintainer/developer actually
> > listens to ruby-talk.  A year ago I couldn”Ēt, as it was being
> > blocked by a anti-spam service that shall remain nameless.

> A definite pain, agreed, but there are other access methods.

So you mean that us developers should jump through hoops for our users?

> > > And I don't echo the RTFM stuff, either.  A question from a
> > > reasonable person means something wasn't clear to a user that was
> > > clear to a developer.  The sensible resolution: developer thanks
> > > user and tries to make the software clearer in what it's doing, or
> > > whatever.  So thanks, Mark.

> > How was this clear to a developer?

> If a developer/documenter didn't document it they must have thought it
> sufficiently clear for the reasonable person.

Perhaps, but one can always improve.  Perhaps the user that”Ēs having
difficulties can figure out what the problem is, write something up, and
send a patch?

> > files isn”Ēt the most easy task one can undertake.

> this is why there are so many questions [and below].  I'm still not
> clear what is really going on with Vim's startup, and I conclude that
> it must be the simplest thing that actually works, but I'm still
> baffled after reading the docs. There's so much of it.

Yes, it surely is.  Too complicated in my opinion, but in many ways
better than the Emacs way (and that”Ēs not a flame, OK?).

> > something doesn”Ēt work for another user even less so.  Fine, my RTFM
> > was perhaps uncalled for, but I do believe that the Vim
> > documentation mentions a lot of the stuff you need to know to get
> > vim-ruby working and the INSTALL, README, and vim-ruby-install.rb
> > files mention the rest.  Apparently we must now also mention how to
> > verify a successful install...were does it end?

> Support never does (until the package dies).  Murphy's law originated
> with people's ability to misunderstand instructions, IIRC.

:-)

> > But fine, I”Ēll bow out of this one, as I”Ēm not responsible for that
> > part of the project.
> >
> > And by the way, I haven”Ēt been paid a cent for any of my work, so
> > excuse me if I don”Ēt feel that I have the energy to thank every user
> > and answer every question.  The only thank you”Ēs I”Ēve gotten were
> > after I flew off the handle last time and more or less demanded them
> > [ruby-talk: 143461].

> I sympathise, and conclude that this is probably symptomatic of the
> frustrations people are "expected" to have with computers: they get
> used to complaining about things....

Heh, how very true.  I would probably sleep a lot better at night if I
wasn”Ēt so hooked on computers...

> > Something that should perhaps been taken off-list:
> >
> > I guess my grief stems from an overall dislike for the over-inflated
> > importance of the vim-ruby project as a separate entity.  As all (?) the
> > files are included in the Vim distribution anyway, why not just keep it
> > there?  So far, this separation has made us miss an important release,

> Because Bram can't be expected to know every language intimately?

That”Ēs not what I”Ēm saying.  But there”Ēs a CVS for Vim now, and we might
as well put most of our files in it immediately, instead of sidestepping
through another project.

> And for most vim users language-specific problems will look like
> noise?  Keeping it close to Ruby means that the problem domain is
> well understood.  As perfection is approached, so less modifications
> need doing to the files, moving it over to the vim list looks
> better.  I'm fairly sure that the project was started to solve
> things for frustrated rubyists who were not being served well by the
> vim list.  With vim subleties playing off against ruby subtleties,
> the project will always feel alien wherever it lives.

I”Ēm not sure I get you, but yeah, I suppose so.

>         Thank you

And thank you for using our files,
        nikolai

-- 
Nikolai Weibull: now available free of charge at http://bitwi.se/!
Born in Chicago, IL USA; currently residing in Gothenburg, Sweden.
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