Rick Nooner wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 23, 2005 at 08:41:40AM +0900, Isaac Gouy wrote:
> > Rick Nooner wrote:
> > > On Fri, Sep 23, 2005 at 06:26:39AM +0900, Isaac Gouy wrote:
> > > > Rick Nooner wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, and I've been writing large C systems since the mid 80's.
> > > >
> > > > Have you been writing large C++ / Java systems long enough to support
> > > > the claim of 10x size difference? Do you have any data, or is 10x a
> > > > nice sounding guess?
> > >
> > > Hmmm...  I think I said that I've been doing this for a long time.
> >
> > You said you'd been doing C for a long time - you didn't say you'd been
> > doing Java and C++ for a long time.
>
> C++ since the early 90's.  Java since '96.  Python since '95.  Ruby since
> '03.  I've used many other languages through the years as well.  I don't
> have a problem choosing the right language for the job at hand.  Ruby
> is by no means the only language that I use regularly.
>
> >
> > > Just in
> > > case you are wondering, I have written realtime systems in both the Nuclear
> > > Power industry and more recently in telecommunications.  I've also spent
> > > time in the video game industry (but that really was a long time ago and was
> > > all in assembly.)  Interestingly enough, the arguments were pretty much the
> > > same when discussing the move from assembly to C (and fortran to C).  In fact,
> > > looking back to the early 70's, there is a series of computer science text
> > > books by McGraw Hill that discusses the transition from doing systems
> > > programming in assembly vs PL/1 that uses almost identical arguments that
> > > we use today about "scripting" lanaguages.  I'll have to get the name of the
> > > book when I get home tonight.
> > >
> > > Interestingly enough, these arguments were were formulated based on my
> > > observations over the past two decades independently of those in this book
> > > which I only found in the last couple of weeks.  Others have made the same
> > > observations, also indepenently.  Has there been a formal study?  Not that
> > > I know of.  I can only speak from my own experience.  YMMV.
> >
> > So 10x is a nice sounding guess.
>
> It's an educated guess, but it is a guess.  I've been making educated guesses
> about development for my whole career.  In fact, it's expected to even get
> a project approved.
>
> I don't have the time or the inclination to do an actual double blind study.
> If this doesn't suit your expectations, do things your way and I'll do them
> my way.  In the end, it doesn't matter what either you or I do to anyone
> but those we work for (and our own peace of mind).
>
> >
> > >
> > > > Are you doing the same kind of task in Ruby that you did with
> > > > C/C++/Java?
> > >
> > > In the telecommunications world, yes.  In fact, with some systems, it was
> > > quicker and easier to reimplement them in Ruby, adding new features in
> > > the process than to just add the new features in the original languages.
> >
> > Did you do both? Did you re-implement the systems in Ruby, and
> > implement the new features in the original languages? If not, aren't we
> > simply assuming it was quicker and easier.
>
> You don't have to implement in both languages to know which would be easier.
> That's what experience in both languages gives you.  That doesn't mean you
> have to take my word for it.  You can actually try yourself and see :-)
> I'm not going to do the dirty work trying to convince you.
>
> I'm also not saying that Ruby is the only language that should be used
> for any given project.  Use the right tool for the job.  Experience teachs
> this quite well.
>
> > None of this has anything to do with whether it's more productive to
> > use a high-level language with an appropriate framework, rather than
> > using a systems programming language - it has a lot to do with
> > separating data from assumption.
>
> My experience says differently - YMMV.  If you have the time to do
> a research project on this, by all means do so...  I have real work to
> do.

Even with all those years of experience, the only alternatives to a
guesses (educated or otherwise) are double-blind studies and research
projects?

Well, "real work" might also include measuring what we do and how long
it took to do it - then we don't have to guess.

>
> I've said all that I'm going to say on this subject for the moment.
> Believe what you will.

5x :-)

>
> Rick
> 
> -- 
> Rick Nooner
> rick / nooner.net
> http://www.nooner.net