Edward Faulkner wrote: > > You missed the key phrase: "in Ruby". What you're describing is a > typical project in Java or C++. > > In Ruby, if your application is so large and complicated that you > can't easily navigate and understand it without a specialized IDE, > you're basically screwed. I agree. Although Ruby has potential, it still appears to be a language for small systems/utilities. Partly because of the tools support, partly because of performance, partly because it is "new" (ish). If you have a complex problem to solve, choosing the "wrong language" to write a solution can make your task more difficult, but even Ruby cannot make intrinsically complex systems simple. Reading this group and you seem to find several common threads - Newbies from various backgrounds interested in exploring the potential, and hitting the same issues (scattered documentation models, scattered websites with documentation, lack of the level of IDE support other mainstream languages take for granted, language quirks) - "experts" who use Ruby regularly and have probably figured out how to control the coffee machine via vim, and eschew anything more complex than a console prompt. Ruby seems to be at the stage of Java 0.9.. i.e. 1 set of command line tools and loads of "learning applets" to play with. Its going to be a few years and something like "RBuilder" (c.f. JBuilder) to get people using it to solve real problems... if this doesn't happen, then Ruby will probably join the backwater of "almost" or niche languages like Effiel, Forth, Modula-2, Pascal(?), Lisp, D..... (the list is endless). I hope Ruby makes it - and if it does its going to be a few influential groups (like Matz and the Pragmatic team) producing products like RoR and then pushing it hard. You need to make it easy for people to deliver, and great tools support is one way to start this. IMHO all the Ruby IDE developers should be working together to make Eclipse + Ruby plugin work as well (and be as high a profile) as RoR is. You have win-win for all existing Eclipse users looking to transition, and provide great supoprt for new users too. ... Thx for listening. Graham