>-----Mensaje original-----
>De: Guy N. Hurst [mailto:gnhurst / hurstlinks.com]
>Enviado el: Viernes, 27 de Abril de 2001 12:33 a.m.
>Para: ruby-talk ML
>Asunto: [ruby-talk:14292] Re: Ruby mascot proposal. Will this end ?
>
>
>
>
>"Furio R. Filoseta (Tlf.)" wrote:
>> ...
>> I read a post where someone was commenting he stayed away from Python
>> because it is named after a Snake. Well, I associate the name with a very
>> powerful GUN, the Colt Python, a gun I really like, so if I fell
>into this
>> line of thinking, Python is the language I should be using right
>now. (I am
>> not, but just because I like Ruby best, and I get paid to use C#).
>
>That someone would be me, and I *did* use python eventually, but my point
>was that I was not comfortable with the association it had (nor with the
>recurring references people always made in that regard).
>
>>
>> Please excuse me, but you have to agree with me that this is
>plain stupid !
>> You don't, you CAN'T choose a programming language for any other
>reason than
>> its technical, syntactical, etc. characteristics.
>>
>
>It is only 'stupid', perhaps, if you don't care about the
>transcendent and/or
>supernatural. I do, and yes I can and do choose to like a language
>for more
>reasons than the technical ones. Now that Ruby is around, I can
>like not just the
>'technical' features, but the associated symbolism, too. :-)
>

Guy, since I was not able to keep my post's content impersonal, I want to
apologize to you personally. You see, I was not trying to ridicule yor
staying away from Pyhton. You are of course entitled to your opinion and
your ways. By writing what image evokes IN ME the word "Python" (very
different from yours), I tried to state that we couldn't possibly come up
with a mascot that is compliant with everyone's opinion and ways, so we
should keep these out.

About the criteria of choice of a programming language, I still can't see
how can you possibly justify a choice made on supernatural connection to
your boss. Of course, you have your own business, so you can do as you
please, but I bet people like you are not the majority.

>And people often use languages because a project specifies it, or
>because it was compatible with a legacy integration, or because
>someone offered
>to pay them for it (which is why I ended up using python when I did).
>But that doesn't mean they always like it.

As I said, I myself use Microsoft tools just because I get paid for that.

>
>Matz made Ruby to be more friendly for programmers. To focus on
>the programmer,
>not just the computer. And this focus on people in the language should
>carry over to the logo/mascot. The logo/mascot should be pleasant and take
>into account the person.  And people have a sense of dignity.
>

Even dignity comes in many flavors, as it depends on cultural cues.

>The rc kinglet is a nice singing bird - it is pleasant to hear,
>and amazing
>to those who have encountered its small size and powerful song.
>Just like Ruby.
>

I like the Kinglet, just as I like the Ruby stone. I like the Ruby-chan a
little more but in the end, whatever the Icon is, I will wear the t-shirt !

>Maybe calling it a mascot is the problem. More than a mascot, we
>need a logo.
>Logos should have meaning, be scalable, look good with text, etc.  The logo
>can serve as a unifying factor for the community and as a call for
>participation
>to those new to Ruby. It can help them place it among all the
>others out there.
>It is a good identifier and shows organization. And it make things
>easier when
>it comes to making T-shirts, napins, labels, and etc.
>
>>...
>> Then there is all this stuff about political nuances. Give me a
>break ! This
>> would not be politically correct, this would, but my wife would kill me.
>> This is typical USA. I frankly couldn't care less, and so should you. You
>> are programmers, when on earth did you start worrying about all
>this crap ?
>>
>
>When we realized that we are people, too. And we have a life.
>And often, a wife. And children.
>

Again, it is commendable that you PERSONALLY care about this, I myself have
a wife and a kid, but in matters of collective interest like this, I always
try to keep my personal feelings out of the equation and focus on the common
denominator.

>>...
>> Ruby IS japanese, so it is only proper the icon I click on to
>start depicts
>> a Japanese image. The Ruby-chan idea is excellent, but any other JAPANESE
>> icon is OK to me.
>
>In fact, I believe the Japanese are even more sensitive to naming issues
>than my own country (USA). So likewise, it makes sense that much effort is
>put into this by *someone*.
>

It is not the effort I object to, it's HOW the effort is being applied I
disagree with.

It is lucky Ruby was a one man project, for otherwise it would never had
happened !

>Unfortunately, this is turning out to be like the story about Mama Mia's
>vegetable soup -- after each family member privately asked Mama Mia to not
>include the particular ingredient they disliked, they ended up
>with hot water
>for dinner. (That's the 'transparent' result, I guess).
>
>So it can't be based on taste. It has to be based on meaning.
>It doesn't need to be a 'mascot' in the American sense. It is really
>a logo, a symbol we are needing.  A marketable one. A printable one.
>A recognizable one.
>

This is precisely my point. We obviously differ only on the scope of
"Meaning". Yours is broader than mine.


Furio Filoseta