> -----Original Message-----
> From:	claird / starbase.neosoft.com [SMTP:claird / starbase.neosoft.com]
> Sent:	Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:40 AM
> To:	ruby-talk / ruby-lang.org; ruby-talk / netlab.co.jp
> Subject:	[ruby-talk:12770] Re: GUI Toolkit for Ruby
> 
> In article <61AC3AD3E884D411836F0050BA8FE9F33550C6 / franklin.jenkon.com>,
>  <brk / jenkon.com> wrote:
> 			.
> 			.
> 			.
> >Ben's got a great suggestion, which aside from helping with system
> >administration would also enable accessibility. Writing a cross-platform,
> >cross-windowing-toolkit GUI is far from easy. The difficulty goes way up
> if
> >you want to support internationalization, accessibility, or even drawing.
> 
> >
> ><rambling>
> >
> >Dylan's DUIM
> >(http://www.functional-objects.com/products/doc/dguide/index.htm) is one
> >interesting attempt (interesting because Dylan idioms are often
> reminiscent
> >of Ruby idioms, and because people have said nice things about it),
> >wxWindows and Qt are two others. I've written one myself in Python that
> >currently runs on Qt or Java Swing. All have their weaknesses. 
> >
> >Starting with a strong MVC bias is probably a good way to do it, and if
> you
> >work really, really hard, the payoff could be handsome - if Ruby had a
> >single, convincing answer to the question 'What GUI toolkit do I use?',
> it
> >might help improve the user base significantly. 
> >
> >However, this is not a project that should be started lightly. If you
> want
> >to do this right, pick a cross-platform GUI toolkit which supports
> Unicode
> >(and other encodings, possibly) and is free on all platforms as one
> >implementation (wxWindows or gtk might be acceptable compromises, since
> >they're both moving toward I18N support, and Ben's text-only
> implementation.
> >Develop them simultaneously to keep yourself from cheating and making
> some
> >things inaccessible from the text version.
> >
> >Don't forget to look elsewhere for ideas. Consider UIML (www.uiml.org),
> XUL
> >(www.mozilla.org/xpfe), Swing, and the SmallTalk GUIs. Read some books on
> >user interface design.
> >
> >If people think this all the way through and still decide to do it, and
> do
> >it well, Ruby could benefit greatly.
> 			.
> 			.
> 			.
> I like your recommendations for sources of good ideas.
> 
> I think you wrote truest, though, right at the beginning:
>   Writing a cross-platform, cross-windowing-toolkit
>   GUI is far from easy. The difficulty goes way up
>   if you want to support internationalization,
>   accessibility, or even drawing. 
> I'm not sanguine about the prospects for the grand ambition
> you describe.  Java wants all that, and Swing is, frankly,
> unusable in several regards.
> -- 
> 
> Cameron Laird <claird / NeoSoft.com>
> Business:  http://www.Phaseit.net
> Personal:  http://starbase.neosoft.com/~claird/home.html
	[Bryn Keller]  

	I couldn't agree more. It's very, very hard to get this right, and
Swing certainly didn't, IMHO. I'm not sure I've *ever* seen a GUI toolkit
that really got these things right. Certainly not one that got them all and
was still usable.

	Bryn