Last night I went to a talk by Damian Conway. (Wonderful speaker, highly recommended.) Afterwards I was chatting with a number of members of the local PerlMongers. The topic of Ruby came up and what I heard rather strongly bothered me. It turns out that a Ruby user had just shown up on the NY PerlMongers list, and started a flamewar with a post called, "Why I program in Ruby" that just pointed to a tutorial on how to program in Ruby. The discussion (as you might expect) only went downhill from there. Several points came to mind. 1. This was a Perl list. Not a Ruby list. If you show up on a list devoted to another language and start preaching, you are being an asshole, not an advocate. That activity is unwelcome and unwelcome for good reasons. 2. Anyone who thinks that this kind of behaviour will convert people to a new language is sadly mistaken. This kind of activity merely leaves a bad taste. 3. If you are going to talk about Ruby, at least get your facts straight! For a random piece of misinformation, Ruby does have first-class functions. That is what class Proc is for. 4. There are valid reasons to program in multiple languages. Ruby fans are working towards reducing some of those reasons (eg application support). But if you tell people that they should use a tool that is not currently a fit for the job they are doing, they will be unimpressed for rather good reason. Now most of this is just repeating what MJD said to Perl people in http://www.perl.com/pub/2000/12/advocacy.html. But I am hearing more and more signs that it is a lesson that a lot of people who come to Ruby and then get pumped about what the language does need to hear as well. Now this does not mean that all advocacy is bad. As many here know, I am a respected poster on PerlMonks. Several times now the topic of Ruby has come up there. When it does I compare and contrast Ruby and Perl. I generally try to give an honest comparison of where they differ, where they are similar, and mention a few advantages of each. As a result - without pissing people off - quite a few people there have been exposed to Ruby and are trying it that might not otherwise. And a few more are inclined to answer anti-Ruby comments with saying, "Well Tilly likes it." You know, people listen better when you have not just pissed them off... This isn't hard. This isn't new. For instance read the Linux Advocacy mini-HOWTO: http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue14/advocate.html That is excellent advice to follow, no matter what you are advocating. If you don't think you are following those guidelines, then stop. Take a deep breath. Point out to yourself that "witnessing" for Ruby is going to do more to keep people from taking an honest look at it than it is to get people to use it. Do something else for a bit. Thank you for reading this far, Ben _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com