Hello Erik,

On 2012/12/13 0:49, subwindow (Erik Peterson) wrote:
>
> Issue #7549 has been updated by subwindow (Erik Peterson).
>
>
>> What people can do is to persuade matz or fork Ruby.
>
> An attitude like this is almost guaranteed to end in a fork. I do not want Ruby forked.

So you are saying that you don't have the technical arguments to 
persuade Matz? Maybe rather than having this process discussion, you 
could just go and open a feature issue and describe the proposal you 
have (if you have one).


>> Standard language of discussion of designing Ruby is C and Ruby.
>> People can use English, Japanese and other natural languages for assistance.
>
> How are we supposed to persuade matz and the people who have the most influence on him if the language of discussion is only spoken by 1.7% of the world's population? We have to utilize a lingua franca for us to communicate our ideas with each other. In this day and age that language must be English.

Sorry, I'm really wondering what you are talking about. Please correct 
me if I'm wrong, but I haven't found any previous posts from you on 
ruby-core. So I'm wondering why you complain about something not working 
when you have rarely or never tried.

There are quite many people on ruby-core (English!) who have sent in 
proposals via the tracker, and quite many of them got accepted. Of 
course some others didn't get accepted, but there were good reasons for 
that. Have you even tried to make a proposal? Or have you ever tried to 
contribute to a proposal? Why do you complain that you have to use 
Japanese when you were able to use English all the time but didn't give 
it a try?

And while Japanese is only spoken by maybe 1.7% of the world's 
population, it's spoken by a much higher percentage of Ruby committers. 
But if you don't have anything to contribute on ruby-core (English), I'm 
not sure why you think that ruby-dev (Japanese) is a problem. And if you 
have something specific to ask about something on ruby-dev, why don't 
you just go ahead and ask? It has happened in the past, and it usually 
worked in that somebody made a summary of the issue or the discussion 
was moved to English. But it's very inefficient to translate everything 
on ruby-dev just for people who don't even make comments on ruby-core.

Having two lists is just a tradeoff. I read and write (and teach in) 
Japanese, but I'm still much more efficient in English. Therefore I know 
that for most of the Japanese participants on ruby-core, it's not 
necessarily easy to contribute in English. Nevertheless, we see many and 
good contributions in English. I have to say I really admire the 
Japanese Ruby committers.


> Personally I don't think of this proposal as a "heavy process." I see it as a starting ground for discussion on how to make the evolution of Ruby a more collaborative process.

Why start with such a proposal before actually trying to collaborate?


> With the challenges that face Ruby in the next couple of years, collaboration is *essential* for the continued prosperity of Ruby proper.

Yes. But collaboration starts with collaboration, not with claiming that 
collaboration is important before even having tried.

Regards,   Martin.

> ----------------------------------------
> Feature #7549: A Ruby Design Process
> https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7549#change-34666
>
> Author: brixen (Brian Ford)
> Status: Open
> Priority: Normal
> Assignee:
> Category:
> Target version:
>
>
> Matz,
>
> At RubyConf 2012, I gave a talk about a design process for Ruby (http://www.confreaks.com/videos/1278-rubyconf2012-toward-a-design-for-ruby). So far, over 12,000 people have viewed that talk. I think it is reasonable to say that many people are concerned about and interested in a design process for Ruby.
>
> On Monday, we had an IRC meeting of Ruby implementers. Most of the points in my proposal were discussed but I'm concerned that a lot of confusion remains.
>
> I have written a post that describes a Ruby design process and hopefully clarifies points that people found confusing:
>
> http://brixen.io/2012/12/11/a-ruby-design-process
>
> I would like to propose this process for making changes to Ruby. I am going to put a summary of the process at http://rubyspec.org/design and ask for people who support the process to submit their signature. I'd like to request that you consider the response from the community for my proposal.
>
> Thank you,
> Brian
>
>
>