On Sep 25, 2008, at 09:17 , Dave Thomas wrote: > Just what was wrong with Test::Unit? Sure, it was slightly bloated. > But it seemed to work. Saying Test::Unit was slightly bloated is like saying RDoc/ri is an easy and fun package to maintain. You gave up RDoc/ri because you didn't want to maintain it anymore and Nathaniel did the same. miniunit lib loc 646 total test loc 905 total totl loc 1551 total flog = 711.105369946191 test/unit lib loc 3571 total test loc 2464 total totl loc 6035 total flog = 3103.27739878118 (numbers not totally current but very close) Time to run 10,000 passing tests: test/unit : 0.782527s miniunit v1.2.1 : 0.340559s miniunit v1.3.0 : 0.467056s Time to run 10,000 failing tests: test/unit : 12.205469s miniunit v1.2.1 : 0.839336s miniunit v1.3.0 : 1.133835s (numbers are completely up to date) > Why not remove mini/xxx for now and package it instead as a gem. Let > people play with it for a while, and let it stabilize. Then consider > integrating it into a future Ruby release. This makes me feel like I've been standing in the corner talking to myself this whole damn time: 2006-10-30 - miniunit 1.0 released as a gem 2007-11-08 - miniunit 1.1 and proposed it to ruby-core [13528] 2007-11-16 - Akira approved miniunit in core [13586] 2008-06-09 - miniunit 1.2 released 2008-06-11 - I asked for approval _again_ [17200] 2008-06-16 - approved by matz [17275] 2008-06-16 - kouhei pipes up with some good concerns [17276] 2008-06-17 - miniunit 1.2.1 released 2008-07-13 - kouhei withdraws his objections [17753] I've mailed core. I've mailed talk. I've released gems. I've blogged... I've asked for feedback every way I know how trying to reduce pain and complications for when it came time to integrate into 1.9. Kouhei was the only one to step up with serious objections. I know I sound like a broken record on this topic, but I'm really sick of all the bloat that comes along in ruby. For a language well known for its elegance and expressiveness, stdlib does a horrid job of leading the way as a shining example of this. How many options processors do we need? (a: 2. 1 actually got removed from 1.8) How many copies of a half busted ruby parser do we need? (2: irb & rdoc - neither have been reengineered to use ripper). How many test frameworks do we need??? TWO apparently. runit is still in 1.9. ftools vs fileutils... etc etc etc etc... I'm trying my best to actively combat this bloat and get things back to the lithe elegance that I fell in love with back in 2000. The sad thing is, every single example above was true back in 2000... we've gone 8 years and still haven't had a serious overhaul on stdlib. The fact that there is no lib/deprecate.rb should be evidence enough. I love ruby, but I worry that the weight of the bloat is pulling itself down.